Although they were an integral part of the early Punk scene in London, the Slits were always very-much their own animal. Adopting the ethic of ideas-over-ability, the band chose to run as soon as they could walk, accepting every opportunity as a challenge (indeed, they went out as a support band on the ‘White Riot’ tour barely months after their first stable line-up had come together.) Regardless of early shortcomings, in Ari Up they had a natural front-person whose performances could be both fearsome and inclusive at the same time. Inevitably, playing behind such a striking character, the other band members were bound to be less-lauded but the reality was that The Slits were always about the entire band. Viv Albertine, Tessa Pollitt and Palmolive created the perfect sounds to give Ari the space for her delivery. Sharing a similar vision and similar intent, it’s hard to think of any other band who were able to explore their ideas and discover their own identity in such an open way, from the raw bursts of energy found on their Peel sessions, through to the accomplished punky-reggae party of the ‘Cut’ LP and beyond to the more eclectic ‘Return of The Giant Slits’ album.
The band original existed between 1976 and 1982 (Palmolive left in 1979) but their reputation continued to grow in subsequent years. They became a particular influence / inspiration for the Riot Grrl movement during the Nineties and, in retrospect, even their later more experimental releases were reappraised and given appropriate credit. But it still came as a surprise to many when Ari Up decided to reform the band in 2005 and although Viv and Palmolive decided against participation, Ari and Tessa put together a new line-up, including drummer Anna Schulte, guitarist Adele Wilson and vocalist / keyboard player Hollie Cook. The band began to play live and released a new EP, ‘Revenge of the Killer Slits’, which were met with much enthusiasm. Over the next few years they toured around the world, performing new material alongside older favourites. The results were eventually seen in 2009 with the release of a new album, ‘Trapped Animal’, which met further acclaim and even found itself being nominated for Grammy Awards in both the Reggae and World Music categories. However, the bands’ progress was destined to come to an abrupt and unexpected end when Ari was diagnosed with cancer. She died in 2010 and, inevitably, the band ceased to be.
However, this was not to be the end of the story. Despite having lived to cope with the traumatic loss of their friend, the remaining members of the band were not going to let the legacy fade away. Viv Albertine published her biography ‘Clothes…Music…Boys’ in 2014, much of which documented her involvement with The Slits. Shortly afterwards, it was also announced that a full-length documentary, ‘Here To Be Heard’, was in production with the involvement of Tessa, Palmolive and Viv. As well as telling the story of their early days, it would also use footage of the reformed band, bringing the entire story together. The finished results were released in 2017 and proved to be as close to definitive a statement as it would be possible to make.
Anyone who has seen the film will already know the key part played by Tessa’s original scrapbook, which documents the bands’ early years. Unsurprisingly, much interest developed around the book itself and the documentary's director, William Badgeley, suggested that it should be published, which was subsequently done by Cadiz Publishing. It may be a by-product of the documentary, but the book is very much an archive in its’ own right and another essential overview of the band.
Resulting from the publication of the book, I was fortunate to be able to arrange an interview with Tessa Pollitt and so, one evening, I met her in West London and we had the following, very enjoyable conversation…
The band original existed between 1976 and 1982 (Palmolive left in 1979) but their reputation continued to grow in subsequent years. They became a particular influence / inspiration for the Riot Grrl movement during the Nineties and, in retrospect, even their later more experimental releases were reappraised and given appropriate credit. But it still came as a surprise to many when Ari Up decided to reform the band in 2005 and although Viv and Palmolive decided against participation, Ari and Tessa put together a new line-up, including drummer Anna Schulte, guitarist Adele Wilson and vocalist / keyboard player Hollie Cook. The band began to play live and released a new EP, ‘Revenge of the Killer Slits’, which were met with much enthusiasm. Over the next few years they toured around the world, performing new material alongside older favourites. The results were eventually seen in 2009 with the release of a new album, ‘Trapped Animal’, which met further acclaim and even found itself being nominated for Grammy Awards in both the Reggae and World Music categories. However, the bands’ progress was destined to come to an abrupt and unexpected end when Ari was diagnosed with cancer. She died in 2010 and, inevitably, the band ceased to be.
However, this was not to be the end of the story. Despite having lived to cope with the traumatic loss of their friend, the remaining members of the band were not going to let the legacy fade away. Viv Albertine published her biography ‘Clothes…Music…Boys’ in 2014, much of which documented her involvement with The Slits. Shortly afterwards, it was also announced that a full-length documentary, ‘Here To Be Heard’, was in production with the involvement of Tessa, Palmolive and Viv. As well as telling the story of their early days, it would also use footage of the reformed band, bringing the entire story together. The finished results were released in 2017 and proved to be as close to definitive a statement as it would be possible to make.
Anyone who has seen the film will already know the key part played by Tessa’s original scrapbook, which documents the bands’ early years. Unsurprisingly, much interest developed around the book itself and the documentary's director, William Badgeley, suggested that it should be published, which was subsequently done by Cadiz Publishing. It may be a by-product of the documentary, but the book is very much an archive in its’ own right and another essential overview of the band.
Resulting from the publication of the book, I was fortunate to be able to arrange an interview with Tessa Pollitt and so, one evening, I met her in West London and we had the following, very enjoyable conversation…
Even before The Slits, you had been in a band called The Castrators. That must have only been for a short time, so how far did that band get ?
‘Well, it didn’t really get much further than something we were talking about. I was doing my A-levels at Chiswick Polytechnic at the time and I hooked-up with a couple of girls, one of whom was called Budgie, not to be confused with the drummer who played in The Slits later on. We were only 16 and Punk was just starting so we decided that we ought to try and form a group. We asked Angela, another one of our friends at College, to join us, but really it was just an idea of doing something. We probably had a couple of rehearsals, I think, but we never played a gig… I remember that Budgie wrote a song that went, ‘I got a pain in my brain and a pain in my arse... I sat on a piece of glass…’ It was really only an idea, but it led-on to my first meeting with The Slits, because of the article in the News of the World which featured both bands. But really, The Castrators was just an idea which never really took off. It wasn’t even as serious as the band that Viv was in, The Flowers of Romance, and they never really got to do anything, either. It still gets mentioned sometimes but seriously, it was never really went any further than a couple of rehearsals.’
Probably because you were asked to join The Slits before they had a chance to go any further…
‘Yeah, that’s right… I was living near to the college and I think Ari came around to see me. I was trying to learn acoustic guitar at that point, just messing around really, but she was very impressed with some poetry that I’d written on the wall… She was two or three years younger than me, but she instigated me being asked to join The Slits after that first meeting’
Once you were given the opportunity, was it something that you felt you had to do ?
‘Oh yes. I left my college course straight away, even though I’d almost finished my A-levels… that’s how young I was ! But I knew this was going to be so much more exciting, so of course I joined The Slits ! I remember going to see my Drama teacher and saying that I was really sorry, but I’d decided to leave. She just said, ‘I always knew you were crazy !’ I mean, I probably should have stayed and completed my exams, but this was going to be so much more exciting, especially when you’re that age. I just thought, forget about all of that, I’m joining The Slits. I didn’t know where it was going to take me, but I thought it sounded really exciting and knew I had to go for it. It was very instinctive.’
‘Well, it didn’t really get much further than something we were talking about. I was doing my A-levels at Chiswick Polytechnic at the time and I hooked-up with a couple of girls, one of whom was called Budgie, not to be confused with the drummer who played in The Slits later on. We were only 16 and Punk was just starting so we decided that we ought to try and form a group. We asked Angela, another one of our friends at College, to join us, but really it was just an idea of doing something. We probably had a couple of rehearsals, I think, but we never played a gig… I remember that Budgie wrote a song that went, ‘I got a pain in my brain and a pain in my arse... I sat on a piece of glass…’ It was really only an idea, but it led-on to my first meeting with The Slits, because of the article in the News of the World which featured both bands. But really, The Castrators was just an idea which never really took off. It wasn’t even as serious as the band that Viv was in, The Flowers of Romance, and they never really got to do anything, either. It still gets mentioned sometimes but seriously, it was never really went any further than a couple of rehearsals.’
Probably because you were asked to join The Slits before they had a chance to go any further…
‘Yeah, that’s right… I was living near to the college and I think Ari came around to see me. I was trying to learn acoustic guitar at that point, just messing around really, but she was very impressed with some poetry that I’d written on the wall… She was two or three years younger than me, but she instigated me being asked to join The Slits after that first meeting’
Once you were given the opportunity, was it something that you felt you had to do ?
‘Oh yes. I left my college course straight away, even though I’d almost finished my A-levels… that’s how young I was ! But I knew this was going to be so much more exciting, so of course I joined The Slits ! I remember going to see my Drama teacher and saying that I was really sorry, but I’d decided to leave. She just said, ‘I always knew you were crazy !’ I mean, I probably should have stayed and completed my exams, but this was going to be so much more exciting, especially when you’re that age. I just thought, forget about all of that, I’m joining The Slits. I didn’t know where it was going to take me, but I thought it sounded really exciting and knew I had to go for it. It was very instinctive.’
Fortunately, opportunities opened-up for The Slits very quickly…
‘Very quickly, yes… I’d challenge anyone to be given that kind of option and still say, “No, I’m going to carry-on with my school work…” I mean, look what happened ! I still think I made the right decision… Even if I had got good exam results, there just weren’t many interesting job opportunities back then, although I wasn’t even thinking about things like that at the time. The offer of joining The Slits was there and no way was I going to refuse it. I was already interested in the more creative side of things… I’d been studying English, Art and Drama and I think that had helped me to build up my confidence. I think we were so lucky, as a generation, to be there at a time which proved to be a turning-point for young people, just as it had happened in the Sixties. It was a brand new revolution which needed to happen, but it was so short-lived. The initial thing only lasted two or three years really, but the fire that burnt during that time was incredible. And it wasn’t just in London, things were happening all over the country and even abroad… it was something in the air and people knew it had to happen. The whole movement or revolution, or whatever it was, came together almost unconsciously, but it was a general feeling that we wanted to make our own future and we didn’t care what anyone else was going to say about it. We were going to do it anyway.’
It’s something that really should be happening now…
‘I think it’s so overdue… but things are very different now, with everyone attached to their computers or mobile phones. It feels as if the energy is so different now and that’s why I always say that we were so lucky to be there at that time, because you could do things like we did. But I do think it’s the right time for some form of revolution now and that young people need to become a bit more angry and furious about the way things are. I’m not saying they should do the same thing as Punk, because Punk was very-much of it’s time, but they need to do something of their own. That’s why it almost annoys me now when young bands come along and say they’re a punk group. They’re not punk groups because that was a different era and, let’s face it, a long time ago. I mean, they can still take the ethics of Punk and the anger and the drive and rebelliousness, but there are so many different things to rebel against now. This would really seem like a perfect time for some sort of explosion to come along. I’ve always thought that things happen in circles and, if that’s the case, the Punk thing has reached the end of it’s cycle and young people need to find a new way to fight for their own rights. If you don’t do it now, then you’ll just be old tomorrow ! But I think things are brewing out there… I loved the Pussy Riot girls, because it took real bravery to stand up against Putin’s regime. People doing things like that really have to be brave to do it, because they’re putting themselves in danger of being locked-up or even killed. That’s where I think Punk is still relevant - not the sounds or the style, but the attitude, which can still be a positive influence. The first real youth revolution happened in the Sixties and it created so much change, but by the middle of the Seventies we were ready to reject even that, because the alternative was accepting the kind of existence that was being offered, which had become so stifling. I think we saw what had happened in the Sixties as something that had been incredibly positive but had gradually become apathetic. They’d paved the way but they hadn’t pursued the opportunities far enough and a lot of those people had become comfortable and complacent. I think that’s why so many of the groups from that era hated the new Punk bands and considered them as upstarts. You also had the other trends from the past decade, the Mods, Rockers and Skinheads, who all had a gang-mentality and thought they were still important, but were really just hanging-on for dear life. When Punk came along, it suddenly began to make a big impression but not in the usual way. I mean, punks weren’t even tough or scary and no-one knew what the Hell they were supposed to be. The older gangs just thought they were a bunch of kids who were trying to take over their turf… So it was a very strange period of time, but it also presented a lot of new opportunities. I think that particularly applied for women… In the Sixties, I think a lot of women still submitted to their roles, like the airy-fairy hippy thing, and there weren’t very many female role models. That was one of the things we were rebelling against. We didn’t want to be represented like that, so we went over-the-top crazy and we did get the support of our male peers, at last to a certain level, to just be ourselves and express ourselves however we felt. We were able to discover ourselves and decide what kind of woman we wanted to be. We invented what we thought we could be and I think that’s something that has continued since then with many talented female musicians. I mean, there were always talented female musicians going all the way back to the Twenties or Thirties, but they never really got the credit they deserved. Women were doing some incredible things, musically, but you never really hear about them in the mainstream, however groundbreaking they may have been. Someone like Sister Rosetta Tharpe, for example, was one of the first women to play an electric guitar and influenced the likes of Elvis Presley, Little Richard and even James Brown ! When you compare what she was doing to what women have to do to achieve mainstream success now… I mean, obviously, there are people with real talent out there but it only seems to be the people who are willing to be superficial who end-up with the spotlight on them. All they seem to want to achieve is to be famous, but where’s the value in that ? I’d always rather hear someone talented or someone who has something new to say.’
‘Very quickly, yes… I’d challenge anyone to be given that kind of option and still say, “No, I’m going to carry-on with my school work…” I mean, look what happened ! I still think I made the right decision… Even if I had got good exam results, there just weren’t many interesting job opportunities back then, although I wasn’t even thinking about things like that at the time. The offer of joining The Slits was there and no way was I going to refuse it. I was already interested in the more creative side of things… I’d been studying English, Art and Drama and I think that had helped me to build up my confidence. I think we were so lucky, as a generation, to be there at a time which proved to be a turning-point for young people, just as it had happened in the Sixties. It was a brand new revolution which needed to happen, but it was so short-lived. The initial thing only lasted two or three years really, but the fire that burnt during that time was incredible. And it wasn’t just in London, things were happening all over the country and even abroad… it was something in the air and people knew it had to happen. The whole movement or revolution, or whatever it was, came together almost unconsciously, but it was a general feeling that we wanted to make our own future and we didn’t care what anyone else was going to say about it. We were going to do it anyway.’
It’s something that really should be happening now…
‘I think it’s so overdue… but things are very different now, with everyone attached to their computers or mobile phones. It feels as if the energy is so different now and that’s why I always say that we were so lucky to be there at that time, because you could do things like we did. But I do think it’s the right time for some form of revolution now and that young people need to become a bit more angry and furious about the way things are. I’m not saying they should do the same thing as Punk, because Punk was very-much of it’s time, but they need to do something of their own. That’s why it almost annoys me now when young bands come along and say they’re a punk group. They’re not punk groups because that was a different era and, let’s face it, a long time ago. I mean, they can still take the ethics of Punk and the anger and the drive and rebelliousness, but there are so many different things to rebel against now. This would really seem like a perfect time for some sort of explosion to come along. I’ve always thought that things happen in circles and, if that’s the case, the Punk thing has reached the end of it’s cycle and young people need to find a new way to fight for their own rights. If you don’t do it now, then you’ll just be old tomorrow ! But I think things are brewing out there… I loved the Pussy Riot girls, because it took real bravery to stand up against Putin’s regime. People doing things like that really have to be brave to do it, because they’re putting themselves in danger of being locked-up or even killed. That’s where I think Punk is still relevant - not the sounds or the style, but the attitude, which can still be a positive influence. The first real youth revolution happened in the Sixties and it created so much change, but by the middle of the Seventies we were ready to reject even that, because the alternative was accepting the kind of existence that was being offered, which had become so stifling. I think we saw what had happened in the Sixties as something that had been incredibly positive but had gradually become apathetic. They’d paved the way but they hadn’t pursued the opportunities far enough and a lot of those people had become comfortable and complacent. I think that’s why so many of the groups from that era hated the new Punk bands and considered them as upstarts. You also had the other trends from the past decade, the Mods, Rockers and Skinheads, who all had a gang-mentality and thought they were still important, but were really just hanging-on for dear life. When Punk came along, it suddenly began to make a big impression but not in the usual way. I mean, punks weren’t even tough or scary and no-one knew what the Hell they were supposed to be. The older gangs just thought they were a bunch of kids who were trying to take over their turf… So it was a very strange period of time, but it also presented a lot of new opportunities. I think that particularly applied for women… In the Sixties, I think a lot of women still submitted to their roles, like the airy-fairy hippy thing, and there weren’t very many female role models. That was one of the things we were rebelling against. We didn’t want to be represented like that, so we went over-the-top crazy and we did get the support of our male peers, at last to a certain level, to just be ourselves and express ourselves however we felt. We were able to discover ourselves and decide what kind of woman we wanted to be. We invented what we thought we could be and I think that’s something that has continued since then with many talented female musicians. I mean, there were always talented female musicians going all the way back to the Twenties or Thirties, but they never really got the credit they deserved. Women were doing some incredible things, musically, but you never really hear about them in the mainstream, however groundbreaking they may have been. Someone like Sister Rosetta Tharpe, for example, was one of the first women to play an electric guitar and influenced the likes of Elvis Presley, Little Richard and even James Brown ! When you compare what she was doing to what women have to do to achieve mainstream success now… I mean, obviously, there are people with real talent out there but it only seems to be the people who are willing to be superficial who end-up with the spotlight on them. All they seem to want to achieve is to be famous, but where’s the value in that ? I’d always rather hear someone talented or someone who has something new to say.’
I think there’s also a lot more pressure put on young people now, about what they should or shouldn’t do. So much emphasis is placed on further education and deciding on their career from very early on, meaning that many of them end up with big Student Loan debts before they’ve even started work and can’t even afford to leave their family home…
‘Well, yeah, that’s definitely something we didn’t have to worry about so much. I’d been able to leave home when I was 16, so no-one was telling me what I should or shouldn’t do. But now, there’s an entire generation who are forced to stay at home for way too long, because they can’t afford to do anything else. I think every 16, 17 or 18 year-old should be trying to get out of their parents’ house as soon as they’ve finished their schooling. But the government has made it so difficult for anyone to find a place to live. We grew up in the age of squatting, so you could just go out there and find yourself a little place for a few months. But the current generation doesn’t even have that option…’
The Slits were always very enthusiastic about the relationship between Punk and Reggae, but I’ve wondered if you ever had any problems when you went to Reggae Clubs ? Although people like Don Letts were obviously very supportive of what you were doing, some of the more traditional Rastas could have very misogynistic attitudes towards women and I suspect The Slits wouldn’t have impressed them at all…
‘I could certainly tell a few stories, although generally-speaking we were going to clubs with people who were more of our generation and they would have a similar affinity. We had the same spirit inside us, so when the two things cam together, it was great. An old friend from those days, Clive from the Moa Anbessa Sound System, told me recently that the thing they loved about The Slits was that we were as crazy as they were ! But they weren’t the typical Rastas and were more into the music than the other things. If you went deeper into it, like the Twelve Tribes stuff, you’d find the people who were more strictly Rastafarian. We once went with Don Letts and another friend of ours, Ivi, to a Twelve Tribes place in South London. We walked-in very innocently, but we didn’t understand the depth of their faith… We were sitting in a corner and, without even thinking about it, I put my foot up on the sofa. Suddenly, there were people standing around us saying that I was being so offensive, which I couldn’t understand because I’d been living in squats where something like that just didn’t matter. Things calmed down but then, a little later, Ari found some drums and started playing them… Again, people started getting upset, saying that women weren’t allowed to play the drums ! This time, we decided to make a quick exit. Don had been trying to be cool, introducing us to a Twelve Tribes situation, but suddenly we were aware that we weren’t really welcome there. Another time, there was an incident at the Four Aces Club in Dalston, when we went there one night with Don. Ari loved to dance so she got up on the dance floor, but suddenly there was a bit of an atmosphere around us. ‘Who are these people ? Why has that dread-guy brought-in these young white girls ?’ Suddenly, a speaker crashed to the floor and missed Ari by about an inch. We didn’t know if someone had deliberately pushed it, but the atmosphere was starting to get heavy and we quickly decided that we should leave. But these things only happened in certain places and generally, we were pretty-much accepted. I think a lot of it was down to Ari, because she just had this fearlessness. She could travel anywhere in the world and, admittedly, some people thought she was crazy, but others would welcome her because she was so odd. She could fit into any situation and become accepted. You’re always going to find different factions in any group, those who are very strict and those who are more inclusive. When people talk to each other and get to know one another, you usually find that most people are really nice, whatever background they come from. It’s when people won’t mix that the problems begin. When you’re willing to mix, it becomes so easy to get along together. You may not share the same beliefs, but deep down, you’ll find that most people share the same spiritual principles… We know what’s good and what’s bad because these are very basic human values. So, it was very kind of them to accept us, because it was their culture and, again, we were very lucky to be there because this was the golden age of reggae. It was popular on a certain level but not at all commercial and they were really coming into their own… We would see Big Youth, Burning Spear and all these amazing artists coming over from Jamaica, so it was the most interesting time for me. I think we absorbed so much of our approach from reggae, even more than from punk.’
‘Well, yeah, that’s definitely something we didn’t have to worry about so much. I’d been able to leave home when I was 16, so no-one was telling me what I should or shouldn’t do. But now, there’s an entire generation who are forced to stay at home for way too long, because they can’t afford to do anything else. I think every 16, 17 or 18 year-old should be trying to get out of their parents’ house as soon as they’ve finished their schooling. But the government has made it so difficult for anyone to find a place to live. We grew up in the age of squatting, so you could just go out there and find yourself a little place for a few months. But the current generation doesn’t even have that option…’
The Slits were always very enthusiastic about the relationship between Punk and Reggae, but I’ve wondered if you ever had any problems when you went to Reggae Clubs ? Although people like Don Letts were obviously very supportive of what you were doing, some of the more traditional Rastas could have very misogynistic attitudes towards women and I suspect The Slits wouldn’t have impressed them at all…
‘I could certainly tell a few stories, although generally-speaking we were going to clubs with people who were more of our generation and they would have a similar affinity. We had the same spirit inside us, so when the two things cam together, it was great. An old friend from those days, Clive from the Moa Anbessa Sound System, told me recently that the thing they loved about The Slits was that we were as crazy as they were ! But they weren’t the typical Rastas and were more into the music than the other things. If you went deeper into it, like the Twelve Tribes stuff, you’d find the people who were more strictly Rastafarian. We once went with Don Letts and another friend of ours, Ivi, to a Twelve Tribes place in South London. We walked-in very innocently, but we didn’t understand the depth of their faith… We were sitting in a corner and, without even thinking about it, I put my foot up on the sofa. Suddenly, there were people standing around us saying that I was being so offensive, which I couldn’t understand because I’d been living in squats where something like that just didn’t matter. Things calmed down but then, a little later, Ari found some drums and started playing them… Again, people started getting upset, saying that women weren’t allowed to play the drums ! This time, we decided to make a quick exit. Don had been trying to be cool, introducing us to a Twelve Tribes situation, but suddenly we were aware that we weren’t really welcome there. Another time, there was an incident at the Four Aces Club in Dalston, when we went there one night with Don. Ari loved to dance so she got up on the dance floor, but suddenly there was a bit of an atmosphere around us. ‘Who are these people ? Why has that dread-guy brought-in these young white girls ?’ Suddenly, a speaker crashed to the floor and missed Ari by about an inch. We didn’t know if someone had deliberately pushed it, but the atmosphere was starting to get heavy and we quickly decided that we should leave. But these things only happened in certain places and generally, we were pretty-much accepted. I think a lot of it was down to Ari, because she just had this fearlessness. She could travel anywhere in the world and, admittedly, some people thought she was crazy, but others would welcome her because she was so odd. She could fit into any situation and become accepted. You’re always going to find different factions in any group, those who are very strict and those who are more inclusive. When people talk to each other and get to know one another, you usually find that most people are really nice, whatever background they come from. It’s when people won’t mix that the problems begin. When you’re willing to mix, it becomes so easy to get along together. You may not share the same beliefs, but deep down, you’ll find that most people share the same spiritual principles… We know what’s good and what’s bad because these are very basic human values. So, it was very kind of them to accept us, because it was their culture and, again, we were very lucky to be there because this was the golden age of reggae. It was popular on a certain level but not at all commercial and they were really coming into their own… We would see Big Youth, Burning Spear and all these amazing artists coming over from Jamaica, so it was the most interesting time for me. I think we absorbed so much of our approach from reggae, even more than from punk.’
John Peel was a big supporter of the band, even before you’d signed a record deal…
‘It probably sounds ridiculous now, but because we were called ‘The Slits’, radio stations would refuse to even mention us and as a result, record labels weren’t interested in signing-us because thought they wouldn’t be able to promote our records. Now, of course, the other side of the argument may well have been, well, our music was crap so the radio wouldn’t play us anyway, but John Peel was the only person who liked what we were trying to do and gave us a break by letting us record our sessions. I know that people used to criticise our musical abilities and we really were still learning, but I challenge anyone to listen to those John Peel sessions and say that we couldn’t play. Just listen to the energy, the intent and the lyrics ! Thank God for John Peel, because I think he saved our bacon. He gave us an opportunity to be heard by people who probably wouldn’t have known of us, otherwise. He gave us a voice and people started to become interested, even if they still didn’t know how to deal with us. Decca approached us and we recorded some demos with them, but then they started trying to tell us what we had to do… They had ideas about us all wearing evening dresses, so that we’d all look the same, like triplets ! We couldn’t believe they were being serious ! We really thought they were joking, but it soon became clear that they just didn’t understand any of what we were trying to do or say, so, of course, we very soon said, ‘Bye-bye, Decca !’ We decided to hold back on signing a deal just for the sake of it, until we discovered Island Records might be interested. I still think Island were one of the more interesting record labels in the Seventies because they had so many relatively obscure but genuinely great artists and now, many of those records are looked upon as really influential, classic albums. Sadly, it became a completely different label when it was taken over by Universal, but they released so many interesting records and a lot of them have stood the test of time. Chris Blackwell was also a great supporter of reggae, which was a really tough battle at the time. Very little reggae broke into the mainstream during the Seventies and only Bob Marley managed to gain more widespread success. That was good because it meant that some people were going to become more receptive towards some of the other bands who weren’t so well known and that’s still important because, even now. You’ll find young people from all sorts of different communities developing a passion for reggae music and that’s what I love when I’m DJ-ing. I see these people from a new generation getting into this wonderful music and it can inspire them to do their own thing, the same way that Punk can still inspire. Just finding out that these people made their own music without following any rules, just following their own instincts - of course that’s going to be inspiring. It’s wonderful when you realise, there are no rules, I can do what I want !’
One of the things that made The Slits stand-out so much was that, although very much a part of the early Punk scene, musically you never sounded like anyone else. Was that a deliberate intention, or was it something that just developed due to not coming from a more orthodox musical background ?
‘We definitely did not want to play ‘rock’. We didn’t want to play something based on 12 Bar Blues because we didn’t want to have to follow any rules and be judged by how well we could play the scales. I love Blues music now, but in The Slits we didn’t want to play guitar solos and wanted to play in a more female way. So the sound became more tribal and more about discovering ourselves. We just wanted to enjoy playing. We weren’t trying to be better than everyone else, we were just having fun, even though there was a lot of discipline involved, especially as things moved on. There was a lot of ‘attack’ in the music because we had to prove ourselves, and we did have a lot of rules… we didn’t want lots of crashing cymbals, we wanted more of a sort of thumping, jungle drums. And we always kept evolving, right from the beginning when we were still learning how to play our instruments. I think Ari was the only one of us who had any musical background, but only as far as she’d had some piano lessons when she was younger. So it was like a naïve form of Art, in a way, almost childlike. But that gave a great power to it, because we really had to find our own way of expressing ourselves. The energy and intention become everything and we didn’t have to be the most remarkable musicians to achieve that. It wasn’t about trying to sound like some other group, it was about finding a way to express ourselves in our own way.’
‘It probably sounds ridiculous now, but because we were called ‘The Slits’, radio stations would refuse to even mention us and as a result, record labels weren’t interested in signing-us because thought they wouldn’t be able to promote our records. Now, of course, the other side of the argument may well have been, well, our music was crap so the radio wouldn’t play us anyway, but John Peel was the only person who liked what we were trying to do and gave us a break by letting us record our sessions. I know that people used to criticise our musical abilities and we really were still learning, but I challenge anyone to listen to those John Peel sessions and say that we couldn’t play. Just listen to the energy, the intent and the lyrics ! Thank God for John Peel, because I think he saved our bacon. He gave us an opportunity to be heard by people who probably wouldn’t have known of us, otherwise. He gave us a voice and people started to become interested, even if they still didn’t know how to deal with us. Decca approached us and we recorded some demos with them, but then they started trying to tell us what we had to do… They had ideas about us all wearing evening dresses, so that we’d all look the same, like triplets ! We couldn’t believe they were being serious ! We really thought they were joking, but it soon became clear that they just didn’t understand any of what we were trying to do or say, so, of course, we very soon said, ‘Bye-bye, Decca !’ We decided to hold back on signing a deal just for the sake of it, until we discovered Island Records might be interested. I still think Island were one of the more interesting record labels in the Seventies because they had so many relatively obscure but genuinely great artists and now, many of those records are looked upon as really influential, classic albums. Sadly, it became a completely different label when it was taken over by Universal, but they released so many interesting records and a lot of them have stood the test of time. Chris Blackwell was also a great supporter of reggae, which was a really tough battle at the time. Very little reggae broke into the mainstream during the Seventies and only Bob Marley managed to gain more widespread success. That was good because it meant that some people were going to become more receptive towards some of the other bands who weren’t so well known and that’s still important because, even now. You’ll find young people from all sorts of different communities developing a passion for reggae music and that’s what I love when I’m DJ-ing. I see these people from a new generation getting into this wonderful music and it can inspire them to do their own thing, the same way that Punk can still inspire. Just finding out that these people made their own music without following any rules, just following their own instincts - of course that’s going to be inspiring. It’s wonderful when you realise, there are no rules, I can do what I want !’
One of the things that made The Slits stand-out so much was that, although very much a part of the early Punk scene, musically you never sounded like anyone else. Was that a deliberate intention, or was it something that just developed due to not coming from a more orthodox musical background ?
‘We definitely did not want to play ‘rock’. We didn’t want to play something based on 12 Bar Blues because we didn’t want to have to follow any rules and be judged by how well we could play the scales. I love Blues music now, but in The Slits we didn’t want to play guitar solos and wanted to play in a more female way. So the sound became more tribal and more about discovering ourselves. We just wanted to enjoy playing. We weren’t trying to be better than everyone else, we were just having fun, even though there was a lot of discipline involved, especially as things moved on. There was a lot of ‘attack’ in the music because we had to prove ourselves, and we did have a lot of rules… we didn’t want lots of crashing cymbals, we wanted more of a sort of thumping, jungle drums. And we always kept evolving, right from the beginning when we were still learning how to play our instruments. I think Ari was the only one of us who had any musical background, but only as far as she’d had some piano lessons when she was younger. So it was like a naïve form of Art, in a way, almost childlike. But that gave a great power to it, because we really had to find our own way of expressing ourselves. The energy and intention become everything and we didn’t have to be the most remarkable musicians to achieve that. It wasn’t about trying to sound like some other group, it was about finding a way to express ourselves in our own way.’
But at the same time, it must have made things more difficult for the band because you never really fitted-in with a more identifiably ‘punk’ sound…
‘We always got a lot of criticism for that. Even when we released the first album, people would be saying, ‘it’s not really Punk…’ It was too polished for some people and it wasn’t what they were expecting. But we’d already recorded our earlier songs for the first two Peel Sessions, so why would we want the album to sound the same as things that we’d already done ? There would have been no growth or evolvement in doing that and we were interested in our own evolution. If that meant that we were going to lose some fans, then we didn’t really care. We were on our own journey and that’s what it was all about. We weren’t interested in doing something just to please the fans.’
I think that approach is a very big part of the reason why The Slits music has become more and more recognised and appreciated over the course of time, probably more so now than it was at the time of its’ original release…
‘I hope so. The second album was so completely different to the first album and the album I did with Ari and the new line-up in 2009, ‘Trapped Animal’, was different again. The records were all very different to each other, but were also unmistakably The Slits. I think that was very important to us… people would hear our new records and they’d know it was The Slits but at the same time, it didn’t sound like anything we’d already done. That, to me, is what makes an artist interesting, rather than just repeating what they think the public wants to hear. It’s quite rare to find an artist who consistently remains interesting, but you have to at least try to do it because, let’s face it, what artist wants to become boring or predictable ? In a lot of ways, we used to appreciate the criticism that was thrown at us because at least it was acknowledging that we weren’t just doing the same thing again and again. That would have been the ultimate death for The Slits.’
I do remember that when the first album was released, there were some comments in the music press implying that they didn’t believe that The Slits were playing on the record because it was a lot more accomplished than they expected. Of course, the recordings were a lot less raw than the earlier Peel sessions, but you’d been together for several years by this point, so of course you had a better idea of what you wanted to achieve…
‘It never occurred to us that people would start making those sort of comments, because we’d just been getting on with writing and playing new songs. Of course we’d been getting better at doing it. And we recorded the album with Dennis Bovell, who was an amazing talent, so he really helped to bring the best out of us. We really worked hard on that album, for weeks and weeks… It wasn’t done in a hurry ! Dennis cracked the whip to make sure we played as well as we could and I still think he was the perfect producer for us. He saw that we had a genuine love for reggae and he believed in us. He also had the greatest sense of humour, which helped when he was making us work so hard… Basically, everything came together and we were able to record an album that surprised a lot of people, so I suppose it’s not all that shocking that some journalists doubted we were playing everything. But I can totally guarantee that we recorded the whole thing. Dennis did a few little tweaks to certain things, as producers always do, but we were playing everything and we had to work damn-hard to get it the way we wanted it to sound. We worked very closely with Dennis and the great thing about him was that he was always willing to listen to us. I think if we had worked with a different producer, it may not have come out so well. Others might well have tried to take over everything and made it too slick. But the way that Dennis worked with us, we were able to produce an album that was a perfect representation of our character. He was happy for us to be ourselves and he didn’t have any agenda about stamping his production style all over it. I’m not sure if that would have happened had we been working with anyone else.’
‘We always got a lot of criticism for that. Even when we released the first album, people would be saying, ‘it’s not really Punk…’ It was too polished for some people and it wasn’t what they were expecting. But we’d already recorded our earlier songs for the first two Peel Sessions, so why would we want the album to sound the same as things that we’d already done ? There would have been no growth or evolvement in doing that and we were interested in our own evolution. If that meant that we were going to lose some fans, then we didn’t really care. We were on our own journey and that’s what it was all about. We weren’t interested in doing something just to please the fans.’
I think that approach is a very big part of the reason why The Slits music has become more and more recognised and appreciated over the course of time, probably more so now than it was at the time of its’ original release…
‘I hope so. The second album was so completely different to the first album and the album I did with Ari and the new line-up in 2009, ‘Trapped Animal’, was different again. The records were all very different to each other, but were also unmistakably The Slits. I think that was very important to us… people would hear our new records and they’d know it was The Slits but at the same time, it didn’t sound like anything we’d already done. That, to me, is what makes an artist interesting, rather than just repeating what they think the public wants to hear. It’s quite rare to find an artist who consistently remains interesting, but you have to at least try to do it because, let’s face it, what artist wants to become boring or predictable ? In a lot of ways, we used to appreciate the criticism that was thrown at us because at least it was acknowledging that we weren’t just doing the same thing again and again. That would have been the ultimate death for The Slits.’
I do remember that when the first album was released, there were some comments in the music press implying that they didn’t believe that The Slits were playing on the record because it was a lot more accomplished than they expected. Of course, the recordings were a lot less raw than the earlier Peel sessions, but you’d been together for several years by this point, so of course you had a better idea of what you wanted to achieve…
‘It never occurred to us that people would start making those sort of comments, because we’d just been getting on with writing and playing new songs. Of course we’d been getting better at doing it. And we recorded the album with Dennis Bovell, who was an amazing talent, so he really helped to bring the best out of us. We really worked hard on that album, for weeks and weeks… It wasn’t done in a hurry ! Dennis cracked the whip to make sure we played as well as we could and I still think he was the perfect producer for us. He saw that we had a genuine love for reggae and he believed in us. He also had the greatest sense of humour, which helped when he was making us work so hard… Basically, everything came together and we were able to record an album that surprised a lot of people, so I suppose it’s not all that shocking that some journalists doubted we were playing everything. But I can totally guarantee that we recorded the whole thing. Dennis did a few little tweaks to certain things, as producers always do, but we were playing everything and we had to work damn-hard to get it the way we wanted it to sound. We worked very closely with Dennis and the great thing about him was that he was always willing to listen to us. I think if we had worked with a different producer, it may not have come out so well. Others might well have tried to take over everything and made it too slick. But the way that Dennis worked with us, we were able to produce an album that was a perfect representation of our character. He was happy for us to be ourselves and he didn’t have any agenda about stamping his production style all over it. I’m not sure if that would have happened had we been working with anyone else.’
The Slits toured in America several times during their original incarnation and I think you made quite an impression, probably most noticeably on the later Riot Grrl movement…
‘It does seem that we made a lasting impression over there… funnily enough, even Madonna came to one of our gigs in New York, before she became famous. Not that I’m claiming that we influenced her… But we tended to get a pretty strong reaction wherever we went, one way or another… We’d have Americans saying, ‘Oh my God, look how they’re dressed ! It’s not Halloween, you know ?’ Compared to what they were used to seeing, we must have seemed very weird. But I think New York was generally a pretty open-minded place, as was LA or San Francisco. But when we went through some of the areas inbetween, it was a bit more difficult. Those three cities have their own character, but a lot of the other places we played all seemed pretty similar at the time. I have to add that, when the last version of The Slits toured in America, it was a lot different to how it was and we also got to play in a lot of places that we hadn’t played before, like the Southern States. But it varies so much… you’ll go to one town and it’ll be great, lovely people with really open-minded attitudes, but then you’ll go to the next town and it’ll feel as if you’re stuck in a time warp. There was one particular occasion when we’d stopped outside a Macdonalds and our guitarist, Adele, was messing around. She did a cartwheel on the grass-lawn and suddenly people came out and told us that she wasn’t allowed to do that ! I mean, she was just a young girl doing a cartwheel and it was causing all this mayhem ! Perhaps it was because she had dreadlocks, but even so… There are definitely some very spooky places in America. I’ve watched some really interesting documentaries recently and, if you think we have problems with racism in this country, it’s almost nothing compared to some of the things that happen in certain parts of America. People are murdered by the Police force and they get away with it ! In some cities, the Police are given quotas telling them how many black or Hispanic people they have to arrest, so they just go out and harass innocent people to meet the targets. It’s shocking that they get away with things like that. I know there’s racism in the UK and it’s always been here, but it really is nothing compared to some of the things that happen in America. It’s really difficult to gauge an opinion about America because most of our impressions of the place are based on what we see on TV. But when you go there and see the different places, you get an idea of how great it can be in one place and how messed-up it can be elsewhere. That’s why I’ve always thought that it’s an important to travel, if you get the chance. You can learn about places by watching TV all day, but it’ll never be the same experience as actually going there and seeing the situation. When we went to play in Australia, I really wasn’t looking forward to it because all I knew about it came from TV programmes like ‘Neighbours’. When I got there, I could’ve slapped myself because I really enjoyed myself and I met some really lovely people. But I’d built-up these prejudices in my head about the place and I’d formed false beliefs just because of the rubbish I’d seen on TV. That really showed me not to be so judgmental before I know what I’m talking about.’
‘It does seem that we made a lasting impression over there… funnily enough, even Madonna came to one of our gigs in New York, before she became famous. Not that I’m claiming that we influenced her… But we tended to get a pretty strong reaction wherever we went, one way or another… We’d have Americans saying, ‘Oh my God, look how they’re dressed ! It’s not Halloween, you know ?’ Compared to what they were used to seeing, we must have seemed very weird. But I think New York was generally a pretty open-minded place, as was LA or San Francisco. But when we went through some of the areas inbetween, it was a bit more difficult. Those three cities have their own character, but a lot of the other places we played all seemed pretty similar at the time. I have to add that, when the last version of The Slits toured in America, it was a lot different to how it was and we also got to play in a lot of places that we hadn’t played before, like the Southern States. But it varies so much… you’ll go to one town and it’ll be great, lovely people with really open-minded attitudes, but then you’ll go to the next town and it’ll feel as if you’re stuck in a time warp. There was one particular occasion when we’d stopped outside a Macdonalds and our guitarist, Adele, was messing around. She did a cartwheel on the grass-lawn and suddenly people came out and told us that she wasn’t allowed to do that ! I mean, she was just a young girl doing a cartwheel and it was causing all this mayhem ! Perhaps it was because she had dreadlocks, but even so… There are definitely some very spooky places in America. I’ve watched some really interesting documentaries recently and, if you think we have problems with racism in this country, it’s almost nothing compared to some of the things that happen in certain parts of America. People are murdered by the Police force and they get away with it ! In some cities, the Police are given quotas telling them how many black or Hispanic people they have to arrest, so they just go out and harass innocent people to meet the targets. It’s shocking that they get away with things like that. I know there’s racism in the UK and it’s always been here, but it really is nothing compared to some of the things that happen in America. It’s really difficult to gauge an opinion about America because most of our impressions of the place are based on what we see on TV. But when you go there and see the different places, you get an idea of how great it can be in one place and how messed-up it can be elsewhere. That’s why I’ve always thought that it’s an important to travel, if you get the chance. You can learn about places by watching TV all day, but it’ll never be the same experience as actually going there and seeing the situation. When we went to play in Australia, I really wasn’t looking forward to it because all I knew about it came from TV programmes like ‘Neighbours’. When I got there, I could’ve slapped myself because I really enjoyed myself and I met some really lovely people. But I’d built-up these prejudices in my head about the place and I’d formed false beliefs just because of the rubbish I’d seen on TV. That really showed me not to be so judgmental before I know what I’m talking about.’
Shortly before you recorded the ‘Cut’ album, Palmolive was asked to leave the band. After being together as friends and working together for several years, why did the rest of you decide that she no longer fitted-in ?
‘It’s funny because if you asked each of us, you’d get a completely different story, but personally all I can say is that it wasn’t my decision… It was really difficult when she was asked to leave because she was my best friend and we were even living in the same squat at the time. I think Viv talks about the reasons in her book… I don’t necessarily think we made a bad decision, but I’ve often thought about how things might have been if we could’ve worked things out and she had stayed with us ? I’m sure it would have been very different group... But I think Viv had a bit more influence over the decision because she was a little older than the rest of us. We were also starting to get ready to record the album and wanted to be sure everything was in place to do it. That being said, Palmolive has since told me a different story, from her perspective, that she had decided that she didn’t want to stay in the band. I have absolutely no memory of this, but she said that she didn’t like the idea of the mud-cover… My memory of doing the pictures for the cover was that we did them right at the last minute and, if that was the case, Palmolive would have already left the band by then. So I’m left pretty confused by the whole thing and I swear that if you could ask each of us, you’d get completely different stories. Whatever the reason, it was extremely upsetting because, not only was she thrown-out of the group, I was the one appointed to tell her. I don’t know why they decided I should do it, because in hindsight we really should have all sat down together as a group and told her what we had decided. It was really horrible that I had to do it by myself. I’m just fortunate that we’ve always remained good friends and she’s never shown any bad-will towards me… In fact, hooking up with while the documentary was made was one of the things that I enjoyed the most about it. But in a lot of ways, it was just one of those things that happens when you’re in a group. If you watch the documentary, you’ll see that I was nearly thrown-out at one point, just before the ‘White Riot’ tour, so it could’ve happened to any of us. And, funnily enough, when Ari decided that she wanted to reform the band, she went to visit Palmolive first, to ask her if she’d join us again. In the end she decided that she wasn’t really into it, but they still had a great time together. So those sort of things can happen to anyone in any group and it doesn’t necessarily mean that you lose a friendship over it. When you’re in a group, you have to make those decisions sometimes.’
The band split in 1982, soon after the release of the second album, ‘Return of the Giant Slits’ on CBS. Did you decide that it had just run its’ course ?
‘Well, again, this is just my memory of events, but I think Ari had just found out that she was pregnant and was having twins. I think she decided that she wanted to get out of England and move to Jamaica, which she eventually did… The band had been together for five years and I think we all thought that we’d reached the end of our relationship. Being in a band can be a bit like a marriage, because you all spend so much time together. We’d all been so young when we started out and I think we all kind of agreed that we should stop. There were no ill-feelings about it.’
‘It’s funny because if you asked each of us, you’d get a completely different story, but personally all I can say is that it wasn’t my decision… It was really difficult when she was asked to leave because she was my best friend and we were even living in the same squat at the time. I think Viv talks about the reasons in her book… I don’t necessarily think we made a bad decision, but I’ve often thought about how things might have been if we could’ve worked things out and she had stayed with us ? I’m sure it would have been very different group... But I think Viv had a bit more influence over the decision because she was a little older than the rest of us. We were also starting to get ready to record the album and wanted to be sure everything was in place to do it. That being said, Palmolive has since told me a different story, from her perspective, that she had decided that she didn’t want to stay in the band. I have absolutely no memory of this, but she said that she didn’t like the idea of the mud-cover… My memory of doing the pictures for the cover was that we did them right at the last minute and, if that was the case, Palmolive would have already left the band by then. So I’m left pretty confused by the whole thing and I swear that if you could ask each of us, you’d get completely different stories. Whatever the reason, it was extremely upsetting because, not only was she thrown-out of the group, I was the one appointed to tell her. I don’t know why they decided I should do it, because in hindsight we really should have all sat down together as a group and told her what we had decided. It was really horrible that I had to do it by myself. I’m just fortunate that we’ve always remained good friends and she’s never shown any bad-will towards me… In fact, hooking up with while the documentary was made was one of the things that I enjoyed the most about it. But in a lot of ways, it was just one of those things that happens when you’re in a group. If you watch the documentary, you’ll see that I was nearly thrown-out at one point, just before the ‘White Riot’ tour, so it could’ve happened to any of us. And, funnily enough, when Ari decided that she wanted to reform the band, she went to visit Palmolive first, to ask her if she’d join us again. In the end she decided that she wasn’t really into it, but they still had a great time together. So those sort of things can happen to anyone in any group and it doesn’t necessarily mean that you lose a friendship over it. When you’re in a group, you have to make those decisions sometimes.’
The band split in 1982, soon after the release of the second album, ‘Return of the Giant Slits’ on CBS. Did you decide that it had just run its’ course ?
‘Well, again, this is just my memory of events, but I think Ari had just found out that she was pregnant and was having twins. I think she decided that she wanted to get out of England and move to Jamaica, which she eventually did… The band had been together for five years and I think we all thought that we’d reached the end of our relationship. Being in a band can be a bit like a marriage, because you all spend so much time together. We’d all been so young when we started out and I think we all kind of agreed that we should stop. There were no ill-feelings about it.’
The musical climate had changed a lot, too. Releasing an album like that at the same time when the New Romantic scene was at its’ height can’t have made things easy for the band…
‘Oh yeah, the music scene had changed so dramatically. When the second album was released, it was completely out of place and it bombed. In retrospect, I think more people have come to appreciate it, but at the time it completely bombed and that response was a pretty hard thing to take. We really weren’t expecting it to have such a poor reception, although I do think it was probably a bit too ahead of its’ time. We certainly weren’t aware of that while we were making it, but a lot of people have told us that they really love that album now, thirty or forty years later, even though it totally flopped when it first came out. You’re never aware of what affect a record may have, or even if it will have an effect, while you’re making it. So it’s fantastic when something like that happens and it sort of vindicates what we tried to do. If you’re honest about what you’re doing, it’ll always be a risk you take. You have to keep challenging yourself otherwise you’ll just become stagnant.’
After The Slits split-up, did you continue to play any music between then and the eventual reformation in 2005 ?
I did, but this was way, way back… I was in a kind of family-group with my daughters’ father, Sean Oliver, called 'The Mighty Hogs'. He was already a musician and producer, and the group included his sister and their cousin. We got as far as making some demos, which I thought were very interesting, but then it all just back-fired. It got a bit weird because they were all family-members and it ended-up that I got the sack, even though I’d written quite a few of the songs. After that, I’d had enough for quite a while and I only ended-up doing a few odd things. I played with the writer and artist Brion Gysin at one point, dancing around with a cello. That was probably around 1984, although I really can’t remember how it came about. And I also did a performance at the Raymond Revue Bar ! I did two songs with Andrea Oliver, who was a member of Rip Rig and Panic and was a fantastic singer in her own right… She’s now a presenter on TV ! But that night we played a couple of crazy songs at the Raymond Revue Bar and that was really all I did after The Slits split. I put it all down and I’d only ever play acoustic guitar at home, still trying to teach myself how to do it.’
When Ari approached you in 2005 to suggest reforming The Slits, I’m guessing that would have come as quite a surprise ?
‘It was, completely ! I certainly wasn’t expecting it and it was probably the last thing that I wanted to do at that point. When she first asked me about playing in The Slits again, I really didn’t want to do it. There’d been such a long gap and I hadn’t been playing with anyone else, so I didn’t think I’d even be able to do it. But Ari was the sort of person who was so encouraging and she had a way of making you feel good about yourself. She persuaded me that I should give it a go and I have no regrets that we did it. It was a scary prospect to begin with, but I did it and had the best time ! We went to places that I would never have dreamed I would go to, like Japan and Australia, and we played a major tour in America. It was very different because we had different members who were a lot younger than us, and some of them would come and go… we had a few guitarist problems but Adele, who I mentioned earlier, was great, as was Dr No (Nadja Ostroff.) The most solid of the new members was Hollie Cook, who was such a professional, even though she was only about 20 when she joined us. I think she sees the period that she spent with us as her kind of apprenticeship, learning how to perform onstage, and I’m so proud that’s she done so well for herself. We also had a really great, solid drummer, Anna, who stuck with us throughout that time.’
‘Oh yeah, the music scene had changed so dramatically. When the second album was released, it was completely out of place and it bombed. In retrospect, I think more people have come to appreciate it, but at the time it completely bombed and that response was a pretty hard thing to take. We really weren’t expecting it to have such a poor reception, although I do think it was probably a bit too ahead of its’ time. We certainly weren’t aware of that while we were making it, but a lot of people have told us that they really love that album now, thirty or forty years later, even though it totally flopped when it first came out. You’re never aware of what affect a record may have, or even if it will have an effect, while you’re making it. So it’s fantastic when something like that happens and it sort of vindicates what we tried to do. If you’re honest about what you’re doing, it’ll always be a risk you take. You have to keep challenging yourself otherwise you’ll just become stagnant.’
After The Slits split-up, did you continue to play any music between then and the eventual reformation in 2005 ?
I did, but this was way, way back… I was in a kind of family-group with my daughters’ father, Sean Oliver, called 'The Mighty Hogs'. He was already a musician and producer, and the group included his sister and their cousin. We got as far as making some demos, which I thought were very interesting, but then it all just back-fired. It got a bit weird because they were all family-members and it ended-up that I got the sack, even though I’d written quite a few of the songs. After that, I’d had enough for quite a while and I only ended-up doing a few odd things. I played with the writer and artist Brion Gysin at one point, dancing around with a cello. That was probably around 1984, although I really can’t remember how it came about. And I also did a performance at the Raymond Revue Bar ! I did two songs with Andrea Oliver, who was a member of Rip Rig and Panic and was a fantastic singer in her own right… She’s now a presenter on TV ! But that night we played a couple of crazy songs at the Raymond Revue Bar and that was really all I did after The Slits split. I put it all down and I’d only ever play acoustic guitar at home, still trying to teach myself how to do it.’
When Ari approached you in 2005 to suggest reforming The Slits, I’m guessing that would have come as quite a surprise ?
‘It was, completely ! I certainly wasn’t expecting it and it was probably the last thing that I wanted to do at that point. When she first asked me about playing in The Slits again, I really didn’t want to do it. There’d been such a long gap and I hadn’t been playing with anyone else, so I didn’t think I’d even be able to do it. But Ari was the sort of person who was so encouraging and she had a way of making you feel good about yourself. She persuaded me that I should give it a go and I have no regrets that we did it. It was a scary prospect to begin with, but I did it and had the best time ! We went to places that I would never have dreamed I would go to, like Japan and Australia, and we played a major tour in America. It was very different because we had different members who were a lot younger than us, and some of them would come and go… we had a few guitarist problems but Adele, who I mentioned earlier, was great, as was Dr No (Nadja Ostroff.) The most solid of the new members was Hollie Cook, who was such a professional, even though she was only about 20 when she joined us. I think she sees the period that she spent with us as her kind of apprenticeship, learning how to perform onstage, and I’m so proud that’s she done so well for herself. We also had a really great, solid drummer, Anna, who stuck with us throughout that time.’
Did you feel any pressure that you had such a reputation to live up to when the band first started playing live again ?
‘I felt a lot of pressure at first, but when I spoke to my daughter and I spoke to other friends about it, they just told me to do it ! It was a great opportunity, so I couldn’t really not do it.’
How did it feel to be playing those old songs again after so long ?
‘I loved it ! There were so many great songs for us to play… ‘New Town’, ‘Shoplifting’, even ‘Man Next Door’, although we did a new version of that. I was completely comfortable with it and it was great fun. But I also took the music very seriously and I was particularly proud that we made a new album with that line-up. I wrote two songs for it, Hollie wrote one and Anna Ozawa wrote one… Ari was very generous with that. If I presented her with a new song and my lyrics for it, she was always happy to accept it them and do it. She wasn’t at all egotistical. She was always encouraging towards other artists, especially if you may have been feeling a bit insecure. I think that was the real beauty of Ari and it’s quite a rare quality. It really came from her heart. She’d tell you that you could do it and encourage you, or she’d be critical but always in a constructive way. I think that’s a really rare quality, especially in a singer. It’s all too common that singers just want to write their own lyrics and aren’t interested in anything that someone else might have worked on.’
I think one of the important things for the continuity of The Slits was that you were intent on writing and playing new material and seeing how the band could develop, rather than just relying on the old material…
‘Yes, that was very important. If you’re an old group that have just reformed, then obviously people are going to want to hear the old songs, but you also have to be able to challenge them with something new. Show them that we can still play the old songs but also let them know that we can do something new. I think that Ari’s new songs were really groundbreaking, really great. I think she had honed them while she had her own band, The True Warriors, when she was in Brooklyn. She’d been doing that and it really got her back towards The Slits ethic. She probably could have continued doing that quite successfully, without reforming The Slits, but to this day, I seriously don’t know if she’d had some sort of premonition that her time was running out. She seemed to have a sense of urgency in what she was doing even though, when we started to do The Slits again, as far as I was aware she was still in the best of health. So it’s still seems strange to me that she was so adamant that we had to do it then and she seemed to have this big sense of urgency about it.’
You released the ‘Revenge of the Killer Slits’ EP pretty soon after the band had started playing together again…
‘It came out on a label called Only Lovers Left Alive, which was run by Sam Bully and Marco Pirroni. Sam was one of my friends who encouraged me to play again when Ari first asked me to rejoin the group. It wasn’t a full-time label but Sam was a crucial part of bringing me and Ari back together, so it seemed appropriate. We had spoken to a few other labels, like Rough Trade, but none of them seemed to want to know. Marco and Sam were keen to do it and we just went with them as a kind of bridge between the old and new Slits. That was also the first time that Hollie Cook was involved… Paul Cook played on one of the songs, ‘Number One Enemy’, but I’d already known Hollie since she was a little girl, even though I hadn’t seen her for years. I always thought it was nice that there was me and Ari from our generation in the new Slits plus new members like Hollie from the next generation, and it had all came together quite naturally. It was also great that we seemed to attract new fans who were more like Hollie’s age… When we played live, we found there would be people coming to see us from right across the age-range, which made us realise that the music really had stood the test of time.’
‘I felt a lot of pressure at first, but when I spoke to my daughter and I spoke to other friends about it, they just told me to do it ! It was a great opportunity, so I couldn’t really not do it.’
How did it feel to be playing those old songs again after so long ?
‘I loved it ! There were so many great songs for us to play… ‘New Town’, ‘Shoplifting’, even ‘Man Next Door’, although we did a new version of that. I was completely comfortable with it and it was great fun. But I also took the music very seriously and I was particularly proud that we made a new album with that line-up. I wrote two songs for it, Hollie wrote one and Anna Ozawa wrote one… Ari was very generous with that. If I presented her with a new song and my lyrics for it, she was always happy to accept it them and do it. She wasn’t at all egotistical. She was always encouraging towards other artists, especially if you may have been feeling a bit insecure. I think that was the real beauty of Ari and it’s quite a rare quality. It really came from her heart. She’d tell you that you could do it and encourage you, or she’d be critical but always in a constructive way. I think that’s a really rare quality, especially in a singer. It’s all too common that singers just want to write their own lyrics and aren’t interested in anything that someone else might have worked on.’
I think one of the important things for the continuity of The Slits was that you were intent on writing and playing new material and seeing how the band could develop, rather than just relying on the old material…
‘Yes, that was very important. If you’re an old group that have just reformed, then obviously people are going to want to hear the old songs, but you also have to be able to challenge them with something new. Show them that we can still play the old songs but also let them know that we can do something new. I think that Ari’s new songs were really groundbreaking, really great. I think she had honed them while she had her own band, The True Warriors, when she was in Brooklyn. She’d been doing that and it really got her back towards The Slits ethic. She probably could have continued doing that quite successfully, without reforming The Slits, but to this day, I seriously don’t know if she’d had some sort of premonition that her time was running out. She seemed to have a sense of urgency in what she was doing even though, when we started to do The Slits again, as far as I was aware she was still in the best of health. So it’s still seems strange to me that she was so adamant that we had to do it then and she seemed to have this big sense of urgency about it.’
You released the ‘Revenge of the Killer Slits’ EP pretty soon after the band had started playing together again…
‘It came out on a label called Only Lovers Left Alive, which was run by Sam Bully and Marco Pirroni. Sam was one of my friends who encouraged me to play again when Ari first asked me to rejoin the group. It wasn’t a full-time label but Sam was a crucial part of bringing me and Ari back together, so it seemed appropriate. We had spoken to a few other labels, like Rough Trade, but none of them seemed to want to know. Marco and Sam were keen to do it and we just went with them as a kind of bridge between the old and new Slits. That was also the first time that Hollie Cook was involved… Paul Cook played on one of the songs, ‘Number One Enemy’, but I’d already known Hollie since she was a little girl, even though I hadn’t seen her for years. I always thought it was nice that there was me and Ari from our generation in the new Slits plus new members like Hollie from the next generation, and it had all came together quite naturally. It was also great that we seemed to attract new fans who were more like Hollie’s age… When we played live, we found there would be people coming to see us from right across the age-range, which made us realise that the music really had stood the test of time.’
The new version of The Slits met with a very positive response but, as it’s shown in the documentary, the band eventually came to quite a sudden and traumatic ending…
‘It’s still quite hard to talk about because, when we played that last tour in Europe, it was a horrible experience. Ari just wasn’t telling us things, even though she was already so ill, and she became really difficult to be with. She’d always had a temper, usually for good reasons, but this time it was very different. Every single morning, she’d be shouting at the tour manager or shouting at me or shouting at Anna. I think you only get a vague impression of that when you watch the documentary, but it really got to the point where everyone had really had enough. The thing was that she wasn’t being clear with us. Perhaps it was her own pride and dignity, but it was as if she was trying to push us away from her, so she wouldn’t have to let us know what was happening. It came to the point where, individually, we’d all had enough. I think it must have been particularly awkward for Hollie and Anna, as they were both still very young at the time. They had their own lives to think about, so eventually I sat down with them and said, it doesn’t look good for the band, so perhaps you ought to start thinking about other things that you might want to do… Hollie and I decided that we should tell Ari this, so we all got together at the end of the tour and explained how we felt. It was really horrible to have to do that but I had to tell her that we needed to take some time-off, because things just didn’t feel right anymore. I think it really upset her and she didn’t understand because I don’t think she was herself at that time. But, as we found-out later, it was already too late for anyone to do anything for her by then. The cancer had already spread to her liver and her bones… When she had first found-out that she was ill, she’d decided not to go down the conventional route of chemotherapy. That was her choice and everyone did what they could to support her on that… But that last meeting with her didn’t go well and she ended-up walking out. After that, I never got to speak to her again. Her mother, Nora, phoned me some time later and said that Ari might not have much time left, so Hollie, Anna and me went over to see her. But by the time we got there, she was freaking out and telling Nora that she shouldn’t have told us. We went to the hospital in Santa Barbara and tried to see her, but when the nurse told her we were there, she came back and said us that Ari was very sorry but she was on a very private journey and couldn’t see us. It was really horrible… not only did I lose a friend, but the last time we had seen each other we had fallen out and I never got to speak to her again. I did write a letter for her and I was told that she did get to see it, so that’s some form of comfort, but even now it still really affects me.’
Do you think that the documentary has helped to put things in a better perspective for you, personally ?
‘In a lot of ways, it’s been very cathartic. I think it is what she would’ve liked, even though I can’t say that she would liked the documentary itself… I tend to think that if Ari or Viv had been directly involved with the documentary, it probably would never have been completed. But it was done and later on, I heard from her son that her family had seen it and loved it, which was a relief. I still think that if Ari hadn’t become ill, The Slits would have continued in one form or another. There were different factors, obviously, because Hollie was a lot younger than us and sooner or later she was bound to want to forge ahead with her own career. But I think that if The Slits had continued, Ari would’ve invited new members to join us and things could have progressed that way. I think that, as long as there were two of the original members involved, it could continue to be The Slits. But there’s no way any of us could have done it without Ari. It would have been impossible and I wouldn’t have wanted to even try that. So I think the documentary was a good way to make a final statement about The Slits. It was good for me to be involved with Palmolive again, because up until then it had felt almost as if I was carrying a burden on my own. I think it was something that we had to do and it was a huge relief when it was completed.’
‘It’s still quite hard to talk about because, when we played that last tour in Europe, it was a horrible experience. Ari just wasn’t telling us things, even though she was already so ill, and she became really difficult to be with. She’d always had a temper, usually for good reasons, but this time it was very different. Every single morning, she’d be shouting at the tour manager or shouting at me or shouting at Anna. I think you only get a vague impression of that when you watch the documentary, but it really got to the point where everyone had really had enough. The thing was that she wasn’t being clear with us. Perhaps it was her own pride and dignity, but it was as if she was trying to push us away from her, so she wouldn’t have to let us know what was happening. It came to the point where, individually, we’d all had enough. I think it must have been particularly awkward for Hollie and Anna, as they were both still very young at the time. They had their own lives to think about, so eventually I sat down with them and said, it doesn’t look good for the band, so perhaps you ought to start thinking about other things that you might want to do… Hollie and I decided that we should tell Ari this, so we all got together at the end of the tour and explained how we felt. It was really horrible to have to do that but I had to tell her that we needed to take some time-off, because things just didn’t feel right anymore. I think it really upset her and she didn’t understand because I don’t think she was herself at that time. But, as we found-out later, it was already too late for anyone to do anything for her by then. The cancer had already spread to her liver and her bones… When she had first found-out that she was ill, she’d decided not to go down the conventional route of chemotherapy. That was her choice and everyone did what they could to support her on that… But that last meeting with her didn’t go well and she ended-up walking out. After that, I never got to speak to her again. Her mother, Nora, phoned me some time later and said that Ari might not have much time left, so Hollie, Anna and me went over to see her. But by the time we got there, she was freaking out and telling Nora that she shouldn’t have told us. We went to the hospital in Santa Barbara and tried to see her, but when the nurse told her we were there, she came back and said us that Ari was very sorry but she was on a very private journey and couldn’t see us. It was really horrible… not only did I lose a friend, but the last time we had seen each other we had fallen out and I never got to speak to her again. I did write a letter for her and I was told that she did get to see it, so that’s some form of comfort, but even now it still really affects me.’
Do you think that the documentary has helped to put things in a better perspective for you, personally ?
‘In a lot of ways, it’s been very cathartic. I think it is what she would’ve liked, even though I can’t say that she would liked the documentary itself… I tend to think that if Ari or Viv had been directly involved with the documentary, it probably would never have been completed. But it was done and later on, I heard from her son that her family had seen it and loved it, which was a relief. I still think that if Ari hadn’t become ill, The Slits would have continued in one form or another. There were different factors, obviously, because Hollie was a lot younger than us and sooner or later she was bound to want to forge ahead with her own career. But I think that if The Slits had continued, Ari would’ve invited new members to join us and things could have progressed that way. I think that, as long as there were two of the original members involved, it could continue to be The Slits. But there’s no way any of us could have done it without Ari. It would have been impossible and I wouldn’t have wanted to even try that. So I think the documentary was a good way to make a final statement about The Slits. It was good for me to be involved with Palmolive again, because up until then it had felt almost as if I was carrying a burden on my own. I think it was something that we had to do and it was a huge relief when it was completed.’
One of the things I particularly liked about the documentary was the way that your scrapbook formed the basis for much of the narrative. A scrapbook is obviously something that anyone could put together, so that idea also seemed to illustrate the bands’ attitude and approach…
‘Yes, it was a great tool for the documentary. It was the director, Bill, who came up with that idea… I’m a bit more used to it now, but previously I’d never been very comfortable doing interviews, so using the scrapbook was a good way to point to certain events and recall them from there. We could look at an article about the band from The Sun or the News of the World and it helped to make things easier to understand. It put things in a context that was easier to follow and appreciate, regardless of whether the article slagged us off or gave us some praise !’
Which is why it seems so appropriate that the scrapbook has itself been published, following the documentaries’ success…
‘It hasn’t an exact replica… It’s been slightly altered as Palmolive added some comments and our manager, Christine, added some photo’s and comments. That was fine by me, although ideally I probably would’ve preferred it to be as much like the original as possible. I just like the idea that the book is a sidestep from the documentary, but also valid in its’ own right. It’s nice to know that the idea of The Slits still continues to move forward, even if it’s not an actual band anymore. I want to keep the idea of The Slits alive. I mean, I’m amazed that forty years down the line people are still talking about it, even though we never had commercial success. I recently said at a Q & A event that I was happy that the band are still viewed as a ‘cult-group’, because we did things to be true to ourselves and never did things to be commercial. I’m happy that we worked that way and that what we did is still recognised. Obviously, I would be happy if we had made more money, but we were never going to change the way we did things just to achieve that. Also, I kind of like the way that we’re still there to be discovered. Most people have never heard of us, so we’re almost a mystery that people can look in to. I hope people will still hear about us in the future and say, “Wow, what’s that about ?” That’s far more intriguing and magical than something that everyone already knows about.’
‘Yes, it was a great tool for the documentary. It was the director, Bill, who came up with that idea… I’m a bit more used to it now, but previously I’d never been very comfortable doing interviews, so using the scrapbook was a good way to point to certain events and recall them from there. We could look at an article about the band from The Sun or the News of the World and it helped to make things easier to understand. It put things in a context that was easier to follow and appreciate, regardless of whether the article slagged us off or gave us some praise !’
Which is why it seems so appropriate that the scrapbook has itself been published, following the documentaries’ success…
‘It hasn’t an exact replica… It’s been slightly altered as Palmolive added some comments and our manager, Christine, added some photo’s and comments. That was fine by me, although ideally I probably would’ve preferred it to be as much like the original as possible. I just like the idea that the book is a sidestep from the documentary, but also valid in its’ own right. It’s nice to know that the idea of The Slits still continues to move forward, even if it’s not an actual band anymore. I want to keep the idea of The Slits alive. I mean, I’m amazed that forty years down the line people are still talking about it, even though we never had commercial success. I recently said at a Q & A event that I was happy that the band are still viewed as a ‘cult-group’, because we did things to be true to ourselves and never did things to be commercial. I’m happy that we worked that way and that what we did is still recognised. Obviously, I would be happy if we had made more money, but we were never going to change the way we did things just to achieve that. Also, I kind of like the way that we’re still there to be discovered. Most people have never heard of us, so we’re almost a mystery that people can look in to. I hope people will still hear about us in the future and say, “Wow, what’s that about ?” That’s far more intriguing and magical than something that everyone already knows about.’
It’s been nearly ten years since The Slits ended. Have you thought about playing music with anyone else since then ?
‘I’m kind of sitting on that one, but I have been DJ-ing recently. I have a friend called Steve, aka Soft Wax, who runs the Dub Club in Lewisham. He’s been so helpful as we both have such a passion for reggae and Sound System culture from the Seventies, so that’s been a lot of fun. But as for playing live music… I’m not saying never, but I don’t want to commit to anything too major right now. I have recently met a girl from Chile who’s a percussionist, so we may get together to do something, but there’s no definite plans as yet. I would like to play again, but I’m not really sure what it would be. In the meantime, though, Steve and I are planning to do some club events at the Metropolitan pub, near Westbourne Park station. It’s going to be called ‘Bassie’ and it’ll be once a month to begin with. It’ll be on the first Sunday of every month from 3.00 to 10.30, starting off with Blues and Jazz and then gradually going in to solid Roots and Dub reggae until the end of the night. The idea is that it’ll be over the course of the day so that people can come and go and, if it’s successful, we hope to be able to get other people involved.’
As you said earlier, it’s been over forty years since The Slits first set-out to make their mark. How do you feel about all the ‘Punk’ anniversary stuff that happened over the past year or so ?
‘Well, I don’t see the point in trying to make myself look like a ‘punk’ anymore, because even ‘punk’ was a label created by the media. The real point of it was that every individual could express themselves as they wanted to. But once the media latched onto it, within a very short time everybody was being told, ‘this is Punk and this is what the punks look like’. Kids began thinking, ‘I’ve got to have spiky hair and put a safety pin in my ear…’ But that was kind of missing the point, because then it could all be absorbed by the fashion industry and you ended up seeing people like Beyonce or Rihanna adopting styles from Punk as part of the mainstream. That is so not Punk, so why should you feel that you need to live-up to it ? To me, it was always about the attitude and that attitude never has to leave you, no matter how old you get. People can dress-up in supposed punk styles, but then they just become copyists and the more you copy, the less of a punk you really are. It’s not far-removed from the thing Derek Nimmo did on TV… They sent him into Sex or Seditionaries and asked them to dress him up as a punk… He just looked ridiculous because it obviously wasn’t coming from his heart. I think that, as you get older, the greatest thing is to be able to look back at what you’ve done and see that it may have helped to inspire other people. It’s inevitable that you’re going to look back at what you have or haven’t done and too many people end-up just thinking about the mistakes they’ve made. But being able to look back and see things that did have a positive effect… You just have to be brave enough to follow your intentions and when you do that, you’ll get the greatest feeling. It’s about being honest to yourself and not stagnating by just doing what you’re told to do. If you do that you’ll end your life thinking, 'what have I really done', and by that point you have no chance to repair things. You have to put your heart into something and you don’t even necessarily have to be the best at it, but just the fact that you’ve committed yourself to that intention and tried your hardest to achieve it, that’s the important thing. If you don’t put your heart into it, the results will always be flat, but if you do, in some ways, that itself is enough. Music has been the most powerful healing force in my life to this day. It's a universal language and it's helped me recover from many traumas, above and beyond all else...In my case, I can really say that, at times, last night a DJ saved my life !'
‘I’m kind of sitting on that one, but I have been DJ-ing recently. I have a friend called Steve, aka Soft Wax, who runs the Dub Club in Lewisham. He’s been so helpful as we both have such a passion for reggae and Sound System culture from the Seventies, so that’s been a lot of fun. But as for playing live music… I’m not saying never, but I don’t want to commit to anything too major right now. I have recently met a girl from Chile who’s a percussionist, so we may get together to do something, but there’s no definite plans as yet. I would like to play again, but I’m not really sure what it would be. In the meantime, though, Steve and I are planning to do some club events at the Metropolitan pub, near Westbourne Park station. It’s going to be called ‘Bassie’ and it’ll be once a month to begin with. It’ll be on the first Sunday of every month from 3.00 to 10.30, starting off with Blues and Jazz and then gradually going in to solid Roots and Dub reggae until the end of the night. The idea is that it’ll be over the course of the day so that people can come and go and, if it’s successful, we hope to be able to get other people involved.’
As you said earlier, it’s been over forty years since The Slits first set-out to make their mark. How do you feel about all the ‘Punk’ anniversary stuff that happened over the past year or so ?
‘Well, I don’t see the point in trying to make myself look like a ‘punk’ anymore, because even ‘punk’ was a label created by the media. The real point of it was that every individual could express themselves as they wanted to. But once the media latched onto it, within a very short time everybody was being told, ‘this is Punk and this is what the punks look like’. Kids began thinking, ‘I’ve got to have spiky hair and put a safety pin in my ear…’ But that was kind of missing the point, because then it could all be absorbed by the fashion industry and you ended up seeing people like Beyonce or Rihanna adopting styles from Punk as part of the mainstream. That is so not Punk, so why should you feel that you need to live-up to it ? To me, it was always about the attitude and that attitude never has to leave you, no matter how old you get. People can dress-up in supposed punk styles, but then they just become copyists and the more you copy, the less of a punk you really are. It’s not far-removed from the thing Derek Nimmo did on TV… They sent him into Sex or Seditionaries and asked them to dress him up as a punk… He just looked ridiculous because it obviously wasn’t coming from his heart. I think that, as you get older, the greatest thing is to be able to look back at what you’ve done and see that it may have helped to inspire other people. It’s inevitable that you’re going to look back at what you have or haven’t done and too many people end-up just thinking about the mistakes they’ve made. But being able to look back and see things that did have a positive effect… You just have to be brave enough to follow your intentions and when you do that, you’ll get the greatest feeling. It’s about being honest to yourself and not stagnating by just doing what you’re told to do. If you do that you’ll end your life thinking, 'what have I really done', and by that point you have no chance to repair things. You have to put your heart into something and you don’t even necessarily have to be the best at it, but just the fact that you’ve committed yourself to that intention and tried your hardest to achieve it, that’s the important thing. If you don’t put your heart into it, the results will always be flat, but if you do, in some ways, that itself is enough. Music has been the most powerful healing force in my life to this day. It's a universal language and it's helped me recover from many traumas, above and beyond all else...In my case, I can really say that, at times, last night a DJ saved my life !'
The Slits DVD can both be purchased via
www.cadizmusic.com
The Scrapbook (which includes a copy of the DVD) can be purchased here -
www.viveleshop.com
