Rema Rema are one of those bands that may not be widely-known but whose only original release, the ‘Wheel in the Roses’ EP from 1980, has since become something of a cult-classic. Four tracks with a unique style, breaking away from contemporary sounds and creating something like no-one else. It was powerful, it was danceable, it was intelligent and it was fun. However, back in the pre-internet Eighties, it was almost impossible to find further details about the band. Evidently they had spilt-up before the release of the EP and, even prior to that, had not played live very often (to this day, I only know one person who actually saw them.) Some further information emerged when Adam & The Ants suddenly became a Chart-success and it transpired that Marco Pirroni had been the guitarist responsible for the inspired-feedback (he had only been noted as ‘Marco’ on the sleeve.) Indeed, it was often suggested that Rema Rema had split-up when Marco left to join the Ants (the actual truth of the matter was a little more complicated, as you’ll soon find out…)
Although the band were no longer in existence to promote the EP, it became a treasured item in many record collections and, over the following decade, cover versions by the likes of Big Black and This Mortal Coil helped to keep their legacy alive. It also transpired that the former members had subsequently been involved with bands as diverse as Mass, Wolfgang Press, Psychic TV and Renegade Soundwave. Alongside this, occasional rumours would surface to suggest that there were further Rema Rema recordings that had yet to be released. Whether this was based on actual-knowledge or wishful-thinking is debatable, but eventually in 2014, the release of the excellent ‘International Scale’ 7” via ‘Defiant Pose’ fanzine proved that more material did in fact exist. The following year, two 12” singles emerged, the first featuring the incredible ‘Entry’, and the second featuring remixes of the song ‘Rema Rema’ by original member Gary Asquith. Obviously, these releases were warmly-welcomed by fans of the original EP but also piqued the interest of new listeners. With the healthy reception that they received, plans were made with their original label, 4AD, to compile a full albums’ worth of recordings to present an idea of how a Rema Rema album may have sounded had it actually happened.
As chance would have it, I’d been in touch with Mike of Defiant Pose fanzine and he was kind enough to put me in touch with Gary Asquith with the intention of setting-up a retrospective interview. But when I was told that the album was on its’ way, I decided to wait until I could see and hear the finished product. Of course, there were a few delays along the way, but eventually I got to hear the album and, despite there being a nearly 40 year gap, I’m glad to say that it’s been well-worth the wait.
As well as Gary and Marco, the band also included Max, Mick Allen and Mark Cox, but trying to organise a meeting with more than one band member at one time proved to be a little awkward. However, with a launch-event (a Q&A with Gary, Mick and Max from the band) planned at Rough Trade in Notting Hill, I was able to arrange to meet Max earlier in the afternoon. Following this, I arranged to meet Gary the following week and then got held-up at work and didn’t arrive until way-too late (for which I still hang my head in shame.) But the second attempt goes better and I end up with Gary’s side of the story. Now all I had to do was transcribe both interviews and try to put them together in something resembling cohesion…
Although the band were no longer in existence to promote the EP, it became a treasured item in many record collections and, over the following decade, cover versions by the likes of Big Black and This Mortal Coil helped to keep their legacy alive. It also transpired that the former members had subsequently been involved with bands as diverse as Mass, Wolfgang Press, Psychic TV and Renegade Soundwave. Alongside this, occasional rumours would surface to suggest that there were further Rema Rema recordings that had yet to be released. Whether this was based on actual-knowledge or wishful-thinking is debatable, but eventually in 2014, the release of the excellent ‘International Scale’ 7” via ‘Defiant Pose’ fanzine proved that more material did in fact exist. The following year, two 12” singles emerged, the first featuring the incredible ‘Entry’, and the second featuring remixes of the song ‘Rema Rema’ by original member Gary Asquith. Obviously, these releases were warmly-welcomed by fans of the original EP but also piqued the interest of new listeners. With the healthy reception that they received, plans were made with their original label, 4AD, to compile a full albums’ worth of recordings to present an idea of how a Rema Rema album may have sounded had it actually happened.
As chance would have it, I’d been in touch with Mike of Defiant Pose fanzine and he was kind enough to put me in touch with Gary Asquith with the intention of setting-up a retrospective interview. But when I was told that the album was on its’ way, I decided to wait until I could see and hear the finished product. Of course, there were a few delays along the way, but eventually I got to hear the album and, despite there being a nearly 40 year gap, I’m glad to say that it’s been well-worth the wait.
As well as Gary and Marco, the band also included Max, Mick Allen and Mark Cox, but trying to organise a meeting with more than one band member at one time proved to be a little awkward. However, with a launch-event (a Q&A with Gary, Mick and Max from the band) planned at Rough Trade in Notting Hill, I was able to arrange to meet Max earlier in the afternoon. Following this, I arranged to meet Gary the following week and then got held-up at work and didn’t arrive until way-too late (for which I still hang my head in shame.) But the second attempt goes better and I end up with Gary’s side of the story. Now all I had to do was transcribe both interviews and try to put them together in something resembling cohesion…
To start at the very beginning, I asked if Max or Gary had been involved in any bands prior to Rema Rema…
Max I played in a nameless band (occasionally referred to as The B-Sides) that would eventually split
into Adam & The Ants and the Monochrome Set. But it never got outside of Andy Warrens’ bedroom in Balham. It had two lead singers, Bid and Stuart (who later became Adam) but that soon became a problem because they had completely different styles. I only got involved because they, mostly Andy and Bid, decided that I was going to be their drummer and that I should be named ‘Max’. I think Bid was a massive Velvet Underground fan so he just liked the idea of a girl drummer with a one-syllable name beginning with ‘M’. But it wasn’t a real band as we never played any gigs. In fact, we did line-up our first gig at the ICA, but the line-up split so it ended-up being the first Ants gig instead. I did that thing for a while but it never really saw the light of day and afterwards, I was almost in a few other bands… I was in Subway Sect for about half-a-day ! I auditioned for them and they said they really liked what I did, but then they couldn’t decide if they wanted me or not. I kept calling them for a couple of weeks while they made their minds up but eventually, they decided that I wasn’t really what they wanted. So that’s what I was doing before Rema Rema, almost playing in bands. But at least I had a drum kit and I had played a little bit at various rehearsals.
And you’d also done some writing for fanzines like ‘Ripped & Torn’ and ‘Vague’…
Max I only ever did a little bit of writing for ‘Ripped & Torn’, but I a did more for ‘Vague’ later on, and a little bit for ‘ZigZag’ as well. There were probably a few other things and I’m still a writer now, so it’s always been there… I just like words !
Gary I’d been in a band called ‘Manic’ for a while, but we’d never played any gigs… I think we changed the name to ‘Drama’ at one point, as we were always changing our minds. But we only ever rehearsed. Funnily enough, I was thinking about it recently, because one of the tracks on the Rema Rema album, ‘Lost My Way’, sounds a bit different to the direction of the other songs and I was wondering if that might have been something that I brought along from the previous group ? I suppose it sounds a little bit more punky than everything else and the whole idea of Rema Rema was not to be so punky. I know it was one of the very early songs that Rema Rema worked on so it’s possible that the original idea came from something I was doing with the other band... But they were much more straightforward. We all wore leather jackets and jeans and looked a bit like the Ramones, although we didn’t really sound like them. We probably sounded a bit more angry, but we were all 17 or 18 years old so that’s how we were. They were actually pretty good musicians but that meant they were always wanting to sound like other people… they were sort of into Punk but they were also a bit laddish, if you know what I mean ?
And you already knew Mick and Marco from The Models…
Gary Yes, I used to go to see The Models and also went along to watch them rehearse. I always liked them, although Mick doesn’t really think too much of them now. He once called them a third-rate rock band, which I thought was a bit harsh. It was their first band and they weren’t together very long, but I think they were just as good as a lot of the others bands in ’77. I just think they came to realise that what they were doing wasn’t really going anywhere. Their singer, Cliff, was really into Eno and Bowie, and they had started thinking about introducing synthesizers, but I don’t think that would have worked with the set of songs they had. Actually, Mick started working on the song ‘Rema Rema’ while he was still in The Models, although I don’t know how far he got with it at that point… That’s why it was the first song we worked on when we started the new group. I remember him playing it to me on an acoustic guitar and I liked it straight away, even though it sounded pretty different on an acoustic guitar.
Max I played in a nameless band (occasionally referred to as The B-Sides) that would eventually split
into Adam & The Ants and the Monochrome Set. But it never got outside of Andy Warrens’ bedroom in Balham. It had two lead singers, Bid and Stuart (who later became Adam) but that soon became a problem because they had completely different styles. I only got involved because they, mostly Andy and Bid, decided that I was going to be their drummer and that I should be named ‘Max’. I think Bid was a massive Velvet Underground fan so he just liked the idea of a girl drummer with a one-syllable name beginning with ‘M’. But it wasn’t a real band as we never played any gigs. In fact, we did line-up our first gig at the ICA, but the line-up split so it ended-up being the first Ants gig instead. I did that thing for a while but it never really saw the light of day and afterwards, I was almost in a few other bands… I was in Subway Sect for about half-a-day ! I auditioned for them and they said they really liked what I did, but then they couldn’t decide if they wanted me or not. I kept calling them for a couple of weeks while they made their minds up but eventually, they decided that I wasn’t really what they wanted. So that’s what I was doing before Rema Rema, almost playing in bands. But at least I had a drum kit and I had played a little bit at various rehearsals.
And you’d also done some writing for fanzines like ‘Ripped & Torn’ and ‘Vague’…
Max I only ever did a little bit of writing for ‘Ripped & Torn’, but I a did more for ‘Vague’ later on, and a little bit for ‘ZigZag’ as well. There were probably a few other things and I’m still a writer now, so it’s always been there… I just like words !
Gary I’d been in a band called ‘Manic’ for a while, but we’d never played any gigs… I think we changed the name to ‘Drama’ at one point, as we were always changing our minds. But we only ever rehearsed. Funnily enough, I was thinking about it recently, because one of the tracks on the Rema Rema album, ‘Lost My Way’, sounds a bit different to the direction of the other songs and I was wondering if that might have been something that I brought along from the previous group ? I suppose it sounds a little bit more punky than everything else and the whole idea of Rema Rema was not to be so punky. I know it was one of the very early songs that Rema Rema worked on so it’s possible that the original idea came from something I was doing with the other band... But they were much more straightforward. We all wore leather jackets and jeans and looked a bit like the Ramones, although we didn’t really sound like them. We probably sounded a bit more angry, but we were all 17 or 18 years old so that’s how we were. They were actually pretty good musicians but that meant they were always wanting to sound like other people… they were sort of into Punk but they were also a bit laddish, if you know what I mean ?
And you already knew Mick and Marco from The Models…
Gary Yes, I used to go to see The Models and also went along to watch them rehearse. I always liked them, although Mick doesn’t really think too much of them now. He once called them a third-rate rock band, which I thought was a bit harsh. It was their first band and they weren’t together very long, but I think they were just as good as a lot of the others bands in ’77. I just think they came to realise that what they were doing wasn’t really going anywhere. Their singer, Cliff, was really into Eno and Bowie, and they had started thinking about introducing synthesizers, but I don’t think that would have worked with the set of songs they had. Actually, Mick started working on the song ‘Rema Rema’ while he was still in The Models, although I don’t know how far he got with it at that point… That’s why it was the first song we worked on when we started the new group. I remember him playing it to me on an acoustic guitar and I liked it straight away, even though it sounded pretty different on an acoustic guitar.
How did Rema Rema actually come together ?
Max Mick and Marco had already played in The Models, while Mick and Gary had been to school together and I think all three may have all ended-up in the Sixth Form together… Mark was a friend of Gary and also knew Marco through a separate route… They were all from the Harrow area so they became connected. I sort of knew Marco a little bit because I was involved with The Ants. I’d been living with Andy Warren and I was friends with people like Jordan, so I was on the periphery of his circle of friends and he was on the periphery of mine. To be honest, I was a bit scared of him at first… him and Sid Vicious were close friends and Marco always looked intimidating, while Sid always looked scary, even though they weren’t. But when the two of them walked into somewhere together, you used to step back a bit ! So I didn’t really know any of them properly until I contacted them through an advert they’d placed in Melody Maker… They’d been planning to use a drum machine at first, but then decided to put an advert in Melody Maker for a drummer. They’d mentioned bands like the Velvets and Kraftwerk and specified ‘no high-hats’, which really appealed to me as I’d given-up on high-hats some time before. They also said that they wanted someone aged between 18 and 23, so when I spoke to Marco, I had to say that I was 23 and hoped that I wasn’t too old, which is hilarious to think about, now ! They were all about three years younger than me, which means nothing now, but at the time is was a much bigger deal… it was the difference between a bunch of boys who were still living with their parents and a woman of 23 ! I was different in many ways, obviously because I was female, but also because that age-gap was relevant at the time, so I was the one on the outside in some ways. But that was how I got to meet them properly and I think that must have been mid-78. They’d already started playing together and had started to create some songs, but they didn’t entirely know what they doing and didn’t even have a name at that point.
From what you could see when you first joined, did they have any particular aims or intentions for the band, or was it just something that was coming together in its’ own time ?
Max Well, they’d mentioned bands like the Velvets and Kraftwerk in the advert, so that was obviously going to be an influence When I went to meet them all, we talked about other things like Can, Nico, Roxy Music and Eno, so all of that was there. But I also think the thing that might surprise some people is Funk and maybe even Disco, although it’s in there in very different ways. I’m talking about Bootsy Collins and Parliament, those kind of things. You can definitely hear them in some of the riffs. There was a whole range of stuff that we had in common, a lot more than we probably would have expected.
Gary It was very bass-driven and, as the advert said, for some reason it was important that the drums had no high-hats. But I don’t think there was any particular aim. It was quite organic in its’ own way and it wasn’t as if we were saying, we don’t want to do that and we want to be more like this… Someone would just come into a rehearsal with an idea and we’d all start to jam on it to see if we could put something together. Obviously, as time went on we became a bit more organised, but the nice thing about it was that we were all throwing ideas into it and there was quite a lot of energy. If we were to talk about influences, I’d have to say things like Velvet Underground, Can and Eno, but at the same time I don’t think we ended up sounding particularly like any of them. It was more to do with the way they used their ideas to create music. There was a little vocal bit that I did on ‘Why Ask Why’ where I started singing in a kind of screechy voice and that was something I kind of borrowed from The Residents. They would do similar things on some of their records, so I think they were definitely an influence, for that song at least. But it’s like asking how you became the person you are. You’d be surprised how many different things are involved in getting you to a certain place. I don’t think what we were doing was designed or manufactured in any way. We just all came to it with our own ideas and were really enthusiastic to see what we could do.
Max Mick and Marco had already played in The Models, while Mick and Gary had been to school together and I think all three may have all ended-up in the Sixth Form together… Mark was a friend of Gary and also knew Marco through a separate route… They were all from the Harrow area so they became connected. I sort of knew Marco a little bit because I was involved with The Ants. I’d been living with Andy Warren and I was friends with people like Jordan, so I was on the periphery of his circle of friends and he was on the periphery of mine. To be honest, I was a bit scared of him at first… him and Sid Vicious were close friends and Marco always looked intimidating, while Sid always looked scary, even though they weren’t. But when the two of them walked into somewhere together, you used to step back a bit ! So I didn’t really know any of them properly until I contacted them through an advert they’d placed in Melody Maker… They’d been planning to use a drum machine at first, but then decided to put an advert in Melody Maker for a drummer. They’d mentioned bands like the Velvets and Kraftwerk and specified ‘no high-hats’, which really appealed to me as I’d given-up on high-hats some time before. They also said that they wanted someone aged between 18 and 23, so when I spoke to Marco, I had to say that I was 23 and hoped that I wasn’t too old, which is hilarious to think about, now ! They were all about three years younger than me, which means nothing now, but at the time is was a much bigger deal… it was the difference between a bunch of boys who were still living with their parents and a woman of 23 ! I was different in many ways, obviously because I was female, but also because that age-gap was relevant at the time, so I was the one on the outside in some ways. But that was how I got to meet them properly and I think that must have been mid-78. They’d already started playing together and had started to create some songs, but they didn’t entirely know what they doing and didn’t even have a name at that point.
From what you could see when you first joined, did they have any particular aims or intentions for the band, or was it just something that was coming together in its’ own time ?
Max Well, they’d mentioned bands like the Velvets and Kraftwerk in the advert, so that was obviously going to be an influence When I went to meet them all, we talked about other things like Can, Nico, Roxy Music and Eno, so all of that was there. But I also think the thing that might surprise some people is Funk and maybe even Disco, although it’s in there in very different ways. I’m talking about Bootsy Collins and Parliament, those kind of things. You can definitely hear them in some of the riffs. There was a whole range of stuff that we had in common, a lot more than we probably would have expected.
Gary It was very bass-driven and, as the advert said, for some reason it was important that the drums had no high-hats. But I don’t think there was any particular aim. It was quite organic in its’ own way and it wasn’t as if we were saying, we don’t want to do that and we want to be more like this… Someone would just come into a rehearsal with an idea and we’d all start to jam on it to see if we could put something together. Obviously, as time went on we became a bit more organised, but the nice thing about it was that we were all throwing ideas into it and there was quite a lot of energy. If we were to talk about influences, I’d have to say things like Velvet Underground, Can and Eno, but at the same time I don’t think we ended up sounding particularly like any of them. It was more to do with the way they used their ideas to create music. There was a little vocal bit that I did on ‘Why Ask Why’ where I started singing in a kind of screechy voice and that was something I kind of borrowed from The Residents. They would do similar things on some of their records, so I think they were definitely an influence, for that song at least. But it’s like asking how you became the person you are. You’d be surprised how many different things are involved in getting you to a certain place. I don’t think what we were doing was designed or manufactured in any way. We just all came to it with our own ideas and were really enthusiastic to see what we could do.
You mentioned that Mick had started to write the song ‘Rema Rema’ before the band even existed and it was the first song that the new band worked on. Is that why it was also chosen as the band name ?
Gary We struggled to find a suitable name. I actually found an old notepad recently and it had all these names that we came up with one afternoon, around in Marco’s bedroom. Things like ‘Robot’ or ‘Jelly’ or ‘Ice Cream Martian’… We came up with all these weird ideas and I wrote them down. It’s funny because there’s a fanzine coming out soon from a guy in Croatia, called ‘Small Doses’. I put together a 23 minute CD that’s made up of tracks that didn’t make it onto the album. There’s an instrumental version of ‘Gallery’, a couple of instrumental songs, a dubbed version of ‘Feedback Song’… Anyway, I needed a name for one of the instrumental tracks and I suddenly thought of the names in that book and came up with the title, ‘Robots Don’t Like Jelly’ ! But, as I said, we struggled to find a name for the band and were all trying to come up with something until someone suggested we should be named after one of the songs. ‘Rema Rema’ just sounded right even though I don’t think it means anything in particular… I think there was a factory called ‘Rema’ on Western Avenue and Mick had a girlfriend for a while called Lindsay Remann, but I don’t think there’s any real meaning behind it.
It’s funny that the band had originally considered using a drum machine, as Max played almost like a drum machine at times. But on other songs she leaned more towards a tribal style… They would seem to be opposite ends of the spectrum, something that’s almost mechanical and something that’s very natural…
Max I was a drum machine, hahaha ! Actually, tribal drumming may be more organic, but the thing that it shares with drum-machines is that it has a consistent beat that doesn’t shift. I think a lot of drummers see their role as providing something other than that… you know, that kind of falling-down-the-stairs style. It wasn’t that I disliked more elaborate drumming, because I like jazz and there are loads of really intricate drummers that I enjoy, like Art Blakey. But the thing that fitted for Rema Rema, and what we were interested in, was this very stripped down, repetitive beat. One of the drummers I liked was Jaki Liebezeit from Can, so I’d listen to things like ‘Halleluwah’ and try to play like that, but because I wasn’t as skilled, it wouldn’t come out quite right. I’d be playing-around at a rehearsal, trying to figure it out and Mick would join-in with what I had come-up with, so suddenly we were playing something new. I really liked the way that you could arrive at something creative almost by accident, when you try to do something that you admire, but you find you can’t do it very well. You amend it and you end-up with something interesting. It’s like, when you’re cooking and you don’t follow the instructions correctly, but in doing so you invent a new recipe ! It wasn’t ever deliberate because I’d start out trying to play something properly, but by failing to do so, it became something else that was interesting in itself.
Gary We struggled to find a suitable name. I actually found an old notepad recently and it had all these names that we came up with one afternoon, around in Marco’s bedroom. Things like ‘Robot’ or ‘Jelly’ or ‘Ice Cream Martian’… We came up with all these weird ideas and I wrote them down. It’s funny because there’s a fanzine coming out soon from a guy in Croatia, called ‘Small Doses’. I put together a 23 minute CD that’s made up of tracks that didn’t make it onto the album. There’s an instrumental version of ‘Gallery’, a couple of instrumental songs, a dubbed version of ‘Feedback Song’… Anyway, I needed a name for one of the instrumental tracks and I suddenly thought of the names in that book and came up with the title, ‘Robots Don’t Like Jelly’ ! But, as I said, we struggled to find a name for the band and were all trying to come up with something until someone suggested we should be named after one of the songs. ‘Rema Rema’ just sounded right even though I don’t think it means anything in particular… I think there was a factory called ‘Rema’ on Western Avenue and Mick had a girlfriend for a while called Lindsay Remann, but I don’t think there’s any real meaning behind it.
It’s funny that the band had originally considered using a drum machine, as Max played almost like a drum machine at times. But on other songs she leaned more towards a tribal style… They would seem to be opposite ends of the spectrum, something that’s almost mechanical and something that’s very natural…
Max I was a drum machine, hahaha ! Actually, tribal drumming may be more organic, but the thing that it shares with drum-machines is that it has a consistent beat that doesn’t shift. I think a lot of drummers see their role as providing something other than that… you know, that kind of falling-down-the-stairs style. It wasn’t that I disliked more elaborate drumming, because I like jazz and there are loads of really intricate drummers that I enjoy, like Art Blakey. But the thing that fitted for Rema Rema, and what we were interested in, was this very stripped down, repetitive beat. One of the drummers I liked was Jaki Liebezeit from Can, so I’d listen to things like ‘Halleluwah’ and try to play like that, but because I wasn’t as skilled, it wouldn’t come out quite right. I’d be playing-around at a rehearsal, trying to figure it out and Mick would join-in with what I had come-up with, so suddenly we were playing something new. I really liked the way that you could arrive at something creative almost by accident, when you try to do something that you admire, but you find you can’t do it very well. You amend it and you end-up with something interesting. It’s like, when you’re cooking and you don’t follow the instructions correctly, but in doing so you invent a new recipe ! It wasn’t ever deliberate because I’d start out trying to play something properly, but by failing to do so, it became something else that was interesting in itself.
A lot of the recordings that make up the new album were recorded before the band had even played live…
Max We’d put together a really good set of songs so we decided to record them as soon as we got a chance. A lot of the recordings were made in what we rather grandly referred to as ‘Portobello Studio’, but was in fact just a cellar space down on Portobello Road. It really wasn’t much more than a dirty hole in the ground, to be honest ! This was pretty soon after I’d joined the band, maybe in September ’78. We locked ourselves in there for a week with a TEAC four-track which we’d borrowed from Hazel O’Connor.
The band eventually played their first gig on the 1st January 1979 but still didn’t play very many times. Were there reasons for this ?
Max We played 11 or 12 gigs in the one year. We could have played more but we made a conscious choice not to play the regular rock circuit. We wanted to play Art centres and alternative places… We played at places like Screen on the Green and Acklam Hall, which was still quite new back then. We just didn’t want to play places like the Marquee or the Nashville, which probably meant it wouldn’t have been particularly easy to see us. We played our first gig at Toyah’s arty warehouse, Mayhem… Kevin Mooney’s band, European Cowards, were supporting us that night, as well as a band called Tralala, who included Adams’ first wife, Eve… there were so many connections between us and the group of people around the Ants. Rema Rema, the Ants and Monochrome Set seemed to go around and around in circles, about who was in what and when…
Gary Yeah, it was really bizarre at times. Max had played in a very early version of the Ants and she was living with Andy Warren when Rema Rema first came together. There were times when we’d be around at their place and he’d be coming home from playing a gig with Adam & The Ants… Obviously, Marco later went on to play with Adam and when he was helping to put together the new Ants line-up, he recruited Terry Lee Maill who was someone else I’d been to school with. I met Kevin Mooney at the first Rema Rema gig, we got along really well and we’ve been friends ever since. We’re even playing together in our current band, Lavender Pill Mob.
Max I think the only gig we played in a more regular venue was when supported The Banshees and the Human League at The Rainbow. We probably started to realise that we’d have to step into that kind of world at least to some extent. We were also asked to play on the Banshees tour but that fell apart when the Banshees split. So I suppose we didn’t really make ourselves easy to be seen, although I did enjoy playing live.
Gary It’s funny because when I look back, I recall that the gigs we played were very sparsely attended, but years later, I’ve met people who were actually there and they loved it. When Renegade Soundwave were on Mute records, I remember talking to Daniel Miller about various bands that we liked who hadn’t had the success they deserved, and he said that he always thought Rema Rema had been great. He’d seen us at Acklam Hall and loved it… Perhaps it’s because it was so short-lived, that you end-up thinking no-one was really interested. But when you end up meeting people, on the internet or whatever, who were actually there, they always seem to have been really into it.
Max We’d put together a really good set of songs so we decided to record them as soon as we got a chance. A lot of the recordings were made in what we rather grandly referred to as ‘Portobello Studio’, but was in fact just a cellar space down on Portobello Road. It really wasn’t much more than a dirty hole in the ground, to be honest ! This was pretty soon after I’d joined the band, maybe in September ’78. We locked ourselves in there for a week with a TEAC four-track which we’d borrowed from Hazel O’Connor.
The band eventually played their first gig on the 1st January 1979 but still didn’t play very many times. Were there reasons for this ?
Max We played 11 or 12 gigs in the one year. We could have played more but we made a conscious choice not to play the regular rock circuit. We wanted to play Art centres and alternative places… We played at places like Screen on the Green and Acklam Hall, which was still quite new back then. We just didn’t want to play places like the Marquee or the Nashville, which probably meant it wouldn’t have been particularly easy to see us. We played our first gig at Toyah’s arty warehouse, Mayhem… Kevin Mooney’s band, European Cowards, were supporting us that night, as well as a band called Tralala, who included Adams’ first wife, Eve… there were so many connections between us and the group of people around the Ants. Rema Rema, the Ants and Monochrome Set seemed to go around and around in circles, about who was in what and when…
Gary Yeah, it was really bizarre at times. Max had played in a very early version of the Ants and she was living with Andy Warren when Rema Rema first came together. There were times when we’d be around at their place and he’d be coming home from playing a gig with Adam & The Ants… Obviously, Marco later went on to play with Adam and when he was helping to put together the new Ants line-up, he recruited Terry Lee Maill who was someone else I’d been to school with. I met Kevin Mooney at the first Rema Rema gig, we got along really well and we’ve been friends ever since. We’re even playing together in our current band, Lavender Pill Mob.
Max I think the only gig we played in a more regular venue was when supported The Banshees and the Human League at The Rainbow. We probably started to realise that we’d have to step into that kind of world at least to some extent. We were also asked to play on the Banshees tour but that fell apart when the Banshees split. So I suppose we didn’t really make ourselves easy to be seen, although I did enjoy playing live.
Gary It’s funny because when I look back, I recall that the gigs we played were very sparsely attended, but years later, I’ve met people who were actually there and they loved it. When Renegade Soundwave were on Mute records, I remember talking to Daniel Miller about various bands that we liked who hadn’t had the success they deserved, and he said that he always thought Rema Rema had been great. He’d seen us at Acklam Hall and loved it… Perhaps it’s because it was so short-lived, that you end-up thinking no-one was really interested. But when you end up meeting people, on the internet or whatever, who were actually there, they always seem to have been really into it.
After playing several gigs, you were approached by Charisma records, who paid for you to record some demos in Pathway Studios…
Max Yes, we recorded ‘Feedback Song’, ‘Rema Rema’ and ‘Entry’ at Pathway Studios. Charisma were interested in us for a short time. … But they were very affronted by the lyrics to ‘Entry’, to the point of deciding that they didn’t want anything to do with us. They actually said something like, ‘We can’t work with blasphemy’, which is a lovely quote ! I just love that !
Gary That’s the only thing I really remember about Charisma, that they really weren’t happy with those lyrics. But I still think it was a great track, especially with the shared-vocals. In some ways, that may have been the kind of direction we would have gone-in had we continued… Mick and I were both writing lyrics and I think some of them were great while others may have been a bit naïve. When it came to ‘Entry’, the two sets of lyrics had been written completely separately but they really worked well together. My lyrics were more dystopian, I suppose, while Mick’s were more religious… but he was brought-up Catholic, so I suppose we didn’t have the same kind of hang-ups.
Max I didn’t realise it until quite recently, but a few of us were Catholics, so it’s quite interesting that we came up with that song. Perhaps it was just that thing of Catholic-naughtiness ? Not that I’m saying that it was the intention in those lyrics, but there is a draw towards that sort of mischief if you’ve been brought-up in a certain way. If you haven’t been steeped in religion, then you probably wouldn’t feel the need to protest in that way.
Gary Apart from recording those tracks, I don’t really remember much about Charisma, but at another point Virgin were showing some interest. They used to have offices down on Portobello Road so we went-in to see them a couple of times, until some guy told us that they weren’t interested anymore because they’d just signed Magazine… I remember thinking, well, what the fuck has that got to do with us ?
The usual story about why Rema Rema ended is that Marco was asked to join Adam & The Ants, but in reality, I believe it was a bit more complicated than that ?
Max We were offered a bunch of opening spots on The Banshees tour and it was supposed to be a big break for us. But then the whole thing fell to pieces and it proved to be the catalyst for us splitting up.
Gary It’s ironic that it was the Banshees that indirectly led to us splitting-up, because they’d actually been very supportive of us, especially John and Steve.
Max We were supposed to be going on tour with them, but then John McKay & Kenny Morris abruptly quit the band and ran away. Supposedly nobody knew where they were, but Kenny was actually staying with Mark and our manager, Linda, just around the corner from me and Marco. Siouxsie and Steve were phoning Marco to ask if he’d help them to complete the tour, so his allegiance really became split between us and them. When he agreed to help them out by stepping-in to play guitar, I think some of the other members of Rema Rema were pretty unhappy with it. Marco was offering to help Siouxsie and Steve whilst other members of Rema Rema were helping to shelter John and Kenny from their wrath ! So it became a rather strange situation.
Gary It was a strange time because Mark and Linda were harbouring John and Kenny while they were laying-low, but at the same time, Siouxsie and Steve would be calling Marco to see if he’d help them complete the tour ! He agreed to rehearse with them, but for whatever reason they ended up with Robert Smith playing guitar. Shortly after that, Marco did some recording with John Leckies’ band, Cowboys International, before eventually working with Adam & The Ants.
Max Yes, we recorded ‘Feedback Song’, ‘Rema Rema’ and ‘Entry’ at Pathway Studios. Charisma were interested in us for a short time. … But they were very affronted by the lyrics to ‘Entry’, to the point of deciding that they didn’t want anything to do with us. They actually said something like, ‘We can’t work with blasphemy’, which is a lovely quote ! I just love that !
Gary That’s the only thing I really remember about Charisma, that they really weren’t happy with those lyrics. But I still think it was a great track, especially with the shared-vocals. In some ways, that may have been the kind of direction we would have gone-in had we continued… Mick and I were both writing lyrics and I think some of them were great while others may have been a bit naïve. When it came to ‘Entry’, the two sets of lyrics had been written completely separately but they really worked well together. My lyrics were more dystopian, I suppose, while Mick’s were more religious… but he was brought-up Catholic, so I suppose we didn’t have the same kind of hang-ups.
Max I didn’t realise it until quite recently, but a few of us were Catholics, so it’s quite interesting that we came up with that song. Perhaps it was just that thing of Catholic-naughtiness ? Not that I’m saying that it was the intention in those lyrics, but there is a draw towards that sort of mischief if you’ve been brought-up in a certain way. If you haven’t been steeped in religion, then you probably wouldn’t feel the need to protest in that way.
Gary Apart from recording those tracks, I don’t really remember much about Charisma, but at another point Virgin were showing some interest. They used to have offices down on Portobello Road so we went-in to see them a couple of times, until some guy told us that they weren’t interested anymore because they’d just signed Magazine… I remember thinking, well, what the fuck has that got to do with us ?
The usual story about why Rema Rema ended is that Marco was asked to join Adam & The Ants, but in reality, I believe it was a bit more complicated than that ?
Max We were offered a bunch of opening spots on The Banshees tour and it was supposed to be a big break for us. But then the whole thing fell to pieces and it proved to be the catalyst for us splitting up.
Gary It’s ironic that it was the Banshees that indirectly led to us splitting-up, because they’d actually been very supportive of us, especially John and Steve.
Max We were supposed to be going on tour with them, but then John McKay & Kenny Morris abruptly quit the band and ran away. Supposedly nobody knew where they were, but Kenny was actually staying with Mark and our manager, Linda, just around the corner from me and Marco. Siouxsie and Steve were phoning Marco to ask if he’d help them to complete the tour, so his allegiance really became split between us and them. When he agreed to help them out by stepping-in to play guitar, I think some of the other members of Rema Rema were pretty unhappy with it. Marco was offering to help Siouxsie and Steve whilst other members of Rema Rema were helping to shelter John and Kenny from their wrath ! So it became a rather strange situation.
Gary It was a strange time because Mark and Linda were harbouring John and Kenny while they were laying-low, but at the same time, Siouxsie and Steve would be calling Marco to see if he’d help them complete the tour ! He agreed to rehearse with them, but for whatever reason they ended up with Robert Smith playing guitar. Shortly after that, Marco did some recording with John Leckies’ band, Cowboys International, before eventually working with Adam & The Ants.
Max I think as things went on, particularly towards the end, it was becoming a bit more divergent and Marco began to really want to do something a bit chirpier. The things that he liked were tracks like ‘Rema Rema’ and some of the more direct songs. I’m sure he liked the more experimental bits as well, but he probably enjoyed playing it more than actually listening to it, if that makes sense ? I think he enjoyed the experience of turning-up the feedback and doing long, almost improvised tracks, but when it came down to what he actually wanted to present publically, he started to become more interested in songs that were less experimental. Rema Rema’s music was always going to stay in a more esoteric corner, no doubt about it. If we had stayed together, we could have been successful but only in an underground kind of way… although Joy Division broke through, so who knows ? There’s no way to know what might have happened, but I think Marco was getting itchy-feet and basically, he wanted to be doing something much more like Roxy Music, you know, with an experimental edge but also playing the pop music game.
Gary It was a shame because we’d obviously found an interesting direction for the band, so it’s sad that we never got a chance to see where it would go. But I guess Marco just wasn’t feeling it in the same way that the rest of us were and probably had different aspirations for what he wanted to be doing. I have to admit, even I found it hard to entirely absorb everything that we were doing at the time and it’s probably easier to appreciate it in hindsight. But we were certainly developing a unique sound and, even if we did get mentioned alongside other bands like Cabaret Voltaire, the Banshees or even Joy Division, we certainly didn’t sound particularly like any of them. I think it was more that, we were coming from a Punk background but were trying to break through into something else. If there were any real similarities it would have been in attitude and perhaps in having a little bit more knowledge of the pre-history of Punk. We’d all got our anger together and now wanted to express it in a different way. People realised that it didn’t all have to be guitar-based, for example. Some of it depended on your abilities, but so much of it was about your attitude.
But you must have all been quite enthusiastic about what you were doing to have come up with such a interesting set of songs in such a relatively short space of time…
Max Yeah, I think we were. I remember that we used to book weekly sessions at Halligans rehearsal studios on Holloway Road. We used to book night-time sessions because it was cheaper and we’d play all the way through from 11pm through to 6am. We did that a lot and I think we were probably as interested in the process of putting things together as we were about product.
Typically, it was just as the band were splitting-up that 4AD decided that they wanted to release a record by you. As it turned out, the ‘Wheel in the Roses’ EP wasn’t released until after you had split, so you never had a chance to promote it. I’m sure that, with radio and press coverage, plus hopefully playing live more often, the band may well have reached a much wider audience…
Max I very much felt then, and I still feel now, that there were some people doing the more experimental synth / keyboard thing and there were other people doing a more guitar-based thing, but we were putting the two things together which made it a bit more unusual. You don’t expect a band with that kind of powerhouse guitar sound to combine it with a more experimental synth approach. It was a really odd combination, but that was why it worked.
Gary When you listen to something like ‘Fond Affections’, you can hear that we were doing something unique. Even when you listen to the noisier songs, you can always hear the common thread of ideas going through them. Marco was playing some great guitar parts and I still think it was some of the best stuff he ever did. But it was everything coming together that really made it special.
Gary It was a shame because we’d obviously found an interesting direction for the band, so it’s sad that we never got a chance to see where it would go. But I guess Marco just wasn’t feeling it in the same way that the rest of us were and probably had different aspirations for what he wanted to be doing. I have to admit, even I found it hard to entirely absorb everything that we were doing at the time and it’s probably easier to appreciate it in hindsight. But we were certainly developing a unique sound and, even if we did get mentioned alongside other bands like Cabaret Voltaire, the Banshees or even Joy Division, we certainly didn’t sound particularly like any of them. I think it was more that, we were coming from a Punk background but were trying to break through into something else. If there were any real similarities it would have been in attitude and perhaps in having a little bit more knowledge of the pre-history of Punk. We’d all got our anger together and now wanted to express it in a different way. People realised that it didn’t all have to be guitar-based, for example. Some of it depended on your abilities, but so much of it was about your attitude.
But you must have all been quite enthusiastic about what you were doing to have come up with such a interesting set of songs in such a relatively short space of time…
Max Yeah, I think we were. I remember that we used to book weekly sessions at Halligans rehearsal studios on Holloway Road. We used to book night-time sessions because it was cheaper and we’d play all the way through from 11pm through to 6am. We did that a lot and I think we were probably as interested in the process of putting things together as we were about product.
Typically, it was just as the band were splitting-up that 4AD decided that they wanted to release a record by you. As it turned out, the ‘Wheel in the Roses’ EP wasn’t released until after you had split, so you never had a chance to promote it. I’m sure that, with radio and press coverage, plus hopefully playing live more often, the band may well have reached a much wider audience…
Max I very much felt then, and I still feel now, that there were some people doing the more experimental synth / keyboard thing and there were other people doing a more guitar-based thing, but we were putting the two things together which made it a bit more unusual. You don’t expect a band with that kind of powerhouse guitar sound to combine it with a more experimental synth approach. It was a really odd combination, but that was why it worked.
Gary When you listen to something like ‘Fond Affections’, you can hear that we were doing something unique. Even when you listen to the noisier songs, you can always hear the common thread of ideas going through them. Marco was playing some great guitar parts and I still think it was some of the best stuff he ever did. But it was everything coming together that really made it special.
Max By the time we were in conversation with 4AD we had already split-up, which meant we wouldn’t be able to record anything new. Initially, they were happy to release live recordings but then someone mentioned that we’d recorded those tracks for Charisma. I ended up going down to their offices and acquiring the tapes, slightly unofficially… I think I went in and asked about the tapes and someone told me, Oh, you can’t have them… but they’re over on that shelf and I’m just going to leave the room for a few minutes… So we took the tapes to 4AD and, at first, they were going to include ‘Entry’ on the EP, but then they said there was a problem with the recording. Apparently, Marks’ oscillator was slightly out of time and it wasn’t something that they were able to correct. At least, that’s what was cited as the problem back then, although I don’t think the blasphemy helped it much. Anyway, the record was made and we decided to call it ‘Wheel in the Roses’, which was meant to be the opposite of when people announce a funeral and say, Please don’t send any flowers. We were saying, yes, bring on the flowers, let’s celebrate ! We might be dead, but let’s celebrate. It was a bit odd, really, but to their credit 4AD went ahead with the release even though we’d split-up. It was Peter Kent from Beggars Banquet who had introduced us to Ivo and told us that they were setting-up a new label which would be for the more edgier stuff that they liked. Right away, they said that they wanted us to be on it. Ivo really wanted to release the record and was absolutely insistent that we do it. Technically, we were the first signing to 4AD, even though we weren’t his first release in the end. The record came out in 1980 and had a good response, people finally getting to hear us, but we weren’t around anymore to build on that. It’s interesting to think of what we might have done next, but by then it was too late. It was all hypothetical because it was already gone and Marco had moved on to work with Adam.
Who came up with the image for the EP cover ? It’s very striking, but was also a bit controversial at the time…
Max We actually had some trouble with it, because it was a picture taken from something like National Geographic and someone forgot to include the proper credits. I think Mick did the artwork, both for the EP and the new album, or at least had the concept for it. It was certainly Micks’ initial idea… just using the black and white image and including the single rose in red… and then reversing the colours for the new release. But I don’t know why he particularly chose that image. I can only guess that he wanted to identify us with something that was sort of tribal and ‘other’…
Gary The odd thing was that, just around the time that we were splitting-up, we were working on a new song called ‘Ring of Roses’, with lyrics that I’d written. So it’s intriguing to me as to whether the title ‘Wheel in the Roses’ may also have been suggested by this … But I still think that image stands out artistically. It’s just a great image and it always worked for me. I think it added to the intrigue, as we didn’t use a picture of the band and, especially before the internet, people would be thinking, whatever happened to those guys ?
Obviously, some people found the connections with Marco in Adam & The Ants, Max joining Psychic TV and the rest of us doing Mass, but even those things were such an odd mix of things that it added to the intrigue. Further down the line, I was doing Renegade Soundwave and two of the others were in Wolfgang Press… you can’t make that sort of stuff up ! I don’t think you can really hear Rema Rema in any of the things we went on to do, apart from certain specific moments perhaps, but I suppose we all retained a certain amount of the attitude.
Who came up with the image for the EP cover ? It’s very striking, but was also a bit controversial at the time…
Max We actually had some trouble with it, because it was a picture taken from something like National Geographic and someone forgot to include the proper credits. I think Mick did the artwork, both for the EP and the new album, or at least had the concept for it. It was certainly Micks’ initial idea… just using the black and white image and including the single rose in red… and then reversing the colours for the new release. But I don’t know why he particularly chose that image. I can only guess that he wanted to identify us with something that was sort of tribal and ‘other’…
Gary The odd thing was that, just around the time that we were splitting-up, we were working on a new song called ‘Ring of Roses’, with lyrics that I’d written. So it’s intriguing to me as to whether the title ‘Wheel in the Roses’ may also have been suggested by this … But I still think that image stands out artistically. It’s just a great image and it always worked for me. I think it added to the intrigue, as we didn’t use a picture of the band and, especially before the internet, people would be thinking, whatever happened to those guys ?
Obviously, some people found the connections with Marco in Adam & The Ants, Max joining Psychic TV and the rest of us doing Mass, but even those things were such an odd mix of things that it added to the intrigue. Further down the line, I was doing Renegade Soundwave and two of the others were in Wolfgang Press… you can’t make that sort of stuff up ! I don’t think you can really hear Rema Rema in any of the things we went on to do, apart from certain specific moments perhaps, but I suppose we all retained a certain amount of the attitude.
Although Marco had left the band, the rest of you did continue playing together for a while…
Gary After he left, the rest of us decided to continue playing together because we wanted to keep the momentum going. But we also decided that it wouldn’t be Rema Rema without Marco, so it would have to be under a different name and with a new set of songs.
Max We felt that Rema Rema had been the five of us. We’d all co-written everything so it had belonged to all of us and it couldn’t be done by anyone else. We didn’t even consider replacing Marco. When he left, we started rehearsing and playing-around with ideas for new material. But after a while, for me, it just didn’t feel right anymore. I suppose there was personal stuff tied-up with the band, as I was going-out with Marco at the time and that was probably another element in the divisions, real or imagined, within the band. As I was Marco’s girlfriend, I’d been party to conversations about whether he should or shouldn’t leave… When he did decide to leave, I expect the others thought that I’d already known all about it and it made things a bit awkward. Although at the same time, everyone seemed to be quite open to the idea of me staying with them. It’s difficult to explain how I felt emotionally, forty years ago ! It just didn’t come together in the same way that Rema Rema had worked and I decided that I didn’t want to carry on. So, after a while, I left and they carried on and became Mass, which was successful in its’ own right.
Was this when you recorded the Dorothy ‘I Confess’ single ?
Max Yeah… I’d been hanging-out with Genesis P-Orridge and we decided to do a kind of Eurovision Song Contest single ! Part of it was Gen’s trickster-ish sense of humour, but some people just saw it as a straight-forward joke, which it wasn’t. It was around the time that Throbbing Gristle was coming to an end and he had started working with Alex Fergusson. Alex was already into all these pop-tunes and Gen had always liked psychedelic pop, so we came up with the idea of forming a band together. Gen also had an idea to create a new TV company which would be called ‘Psychic TV’ and would only broadcast for one hour each night, between midnight and 1.00am. Somewhere along the line, the ideas for the band and the TV company merged, but by then I decided to take a step-back. I think I felt that doing a one-off, fun-project with them was fine, but I had a feeling that if I got more involved it wasn’t going to work out. Which was eventually borne-out a few years later, when I did end up touring with Psychic TV. That certainly did end in tears ! I became involved with them in 1984… Gen had always wanted me to play drums in Psychic TV but I’d backed-out at the very beginning. He eventually persuaded me and, by that time, it was all of Gens’ friends, basically, his dream line-up … Monte Cazazza from America, Hilmar Hilmarsson from Iceland and others. But the dynamics just didn’t work together and it was doomed from the start, let’s put it that way. Obviously that damaged our friendship to some extent, but later on when I was already living in Brighton, Gen and Paula move down there and were living just around the corner from me, so we were able to work things out. Things healed and we were able to put all of that stuff behind us.
Were you involved in any other music or bands after Rema Rema ?
Max Marco and I formed a punkabilly band with Andy Warren soon after Rema Rema, called The Weekend Swingers. We’d play rockabilly and rock’n’roll covers, like ‘Brand New Cadillac’, as well as things like Abba’s ‘Ring Ring’. We only really did it just to play live and it was great fun It was such a contrast to Rema Rema !
Gary After he left, the rest of us decided to continue playing together because we wanted to keep the momentum going. But we also decided that it wouldn’t be Rema Rema without Marco, so it would have to be under a different name and with a new set of songs.
Max We felt that Rema Rema had been the five of us. We’d all co-written everything so it had belonged to all of us and it couldn’t be done by anyone else. We didn’t even consider replacing Marco. When he left, we started rehearsing and playing-around with ideas for new material. But after a while, for me, it just didn’t feel right anymore. I suppose there was personal stuff tied-up with the band, as I was going-out with Marco at the time and that was probably another element in the divisions, real or imagined, within the band. As I was Marco’s girlfriend, I’d been party to conversations about whether he should or shouldn’t leave… When he did decide to leave, I expect the others thought that I’d already known all about it and it made things a bit awkward. Although at the same time, everyone seemed to be quite open to the idea of me staying with them. It’s difficult to explain how I felt emotionally, forty years ago ! It just didn’t come together in the same way that Rema Rema had worked and I decided that I didn’t want to carry on. So, after a while, I left and they carried on and became Mass, which was successful in its’ own right.
Was this when you recorded the Dorothy ‘I Confess’ single ?
Max Yeah… I’d been hanging-out with Genesis P-Orridge and we decided to do a kind of Eurovision Song Contest single ! Part of it was Gen’s trickster-ish sense of humour, but some people just saw it as a straight-forward joke, which it wasn’t. It was around the time that Throbbing Gristle was coming to an end and he had started working with Alex Fergusson. Alex was already into all these pop-tunes and Gen had always liked psychedelic pop, so we came up with the idea of forming a band together. Gen also had an idea to create a new TV company which would be called ‘Psychic TV’ and would only broadcast for one hour each night, between midnight and 1.00am. Somewhere along the line, the ideas for the band and the TV company merged, but by then I decided to take a step-back. I think I felt that doing a one-off, fun-project with them was fine, but I had a feeling that if I got more involved it wasn’t going to work out. Which was eventually borne-out a few years later, when I did end up touring with Psychic TV. That certainly did end in tears ! I became involved with them in 1984… Gen had always wanted me to play drums in Psychic TV but I’d backed-out at the very beginning. He eventually persuaded me and, by that time, it was all of Gens’ friends, basically, his dream line-up … Monte Cazazza from America, Hilmar Hilmarsson from Iceland and others. But the dynamics just didn’t work together and it was doomed from the start, let’s put it that way. Obviously that damaged our friendship to some extent, but later on when I was already living in Brighton, Gen and Paula move down there and were living just around the corner from me, so we were able to work things out. Things healed and we were able to put all of that stuff behind us.
Were you involved in any other music or bands after Rema Rema ?
Max Marco and I formed a punkabilly band with Andy Warren soon after Rema Rema, called The Weekend Swingers. We’d play rockabilly and rock’n’roll covers, like ‘Brand New Cadillac’, as well as things like Abba’s ‘Ring Ring’. We only really did it just to play live and it was great fun It was such a contrast to Rema Rema !
But over the years, the interest in Rema Rema did remain and ‘Wheel in the Roses’ become something of a cult-classic. The reputation was also helped by bands such as Big Black and This Mortal Coil releasing cover versions of your songs…
Max Mark actually played on the This Mortal Coil recording, which I thought was a bit bizarre… recording a cover version of his own song ! But he was already involved with This Mortal Coil by then…
So it wasn’t entirely a surprise that more original recordings would eventually be released, even if it did take a lot longer than anyone had expected…
Gary The nice thing was that, although we’d split-up, we all stayed friends and it felt more like a natural thing rather than there being any animosity. Marco left, the rest of us continued for a while until Max left, and then we became Mass. But the fact that we remained on good terms and that there were other recordings meant that there was a chance that more Rema Rema material would eventually be released. As the recordings were still available to us, it seemed a shame for them to not be heard, so I made sure that it happened. I’m not so sure if would have happened had I not been around to put everything together, as it was a bit of a love-thing for me and I really had to push things. The first thing I did was the ‘International Scale’ single with ‘Defiant Pose’ fanzine. Michael had got in touch with me because I had stacks of old hand-outs and punk rock memorabilia and I decided to sell it. I really don’t think I need a poster of Sid Vicious on my wall anymore ! Anyway, Michael bought some of the old Rema Rema handouts from me and he’d written to see where they’d come from… my girlfriend was selling them for me online, so she told him who I was and then he started asking me about what I was doing now. Anyway, when I got to know him a bit better, I suggested that I could give him a couple of old tracks and he could put them out as a single. I just said it would have it to be done properly, with nice sleeve artwork and the proper type-set. He was really enthusiastic about it, so it all came together.
Had you always intended to keep an archive of original band recordings ?
Gary No, we just used to record things so that we could listen-back to what we were doing. I had lots of old cassettes, but it was Mark who had all of the old reel-to-reel tapes. I’d been trying to get them back for years but he was always a bit of a magpie. I don’t think he was ever going to do anything with them, but I felt that I would probably be able to do something. It took a few years, but I eventually got them and then I was able to put together the ‘International Scale’ single for Michaels’ fanzine. I always thought that was a great song and the single came together really well.
And then, a year later, the ‘Entry/Exit’ 12” and the Remix 12”, ‘What You Could Not Visualise’, were released. So the interest in the band was definitely being piqued once again…
Max It’s intriguing that the interest has remained and, to give him the credit, I think Gary has done a massive amount to maintain that interest and make sure that it continues. He’s the one that’s taken these old cassettes that we have from gigs and rehearsals and turns them into something that you can actually listen to in the 21st Century. We all have to give him due credit for that.
Max Mark actually played on the This Mortal Coil recording, which I thought was a bit bizarre… recording a cover version of his own song ! But he was already involved with This Mortal Coil by then…
So it wasn’t entirely a surprise that more original recordings would eventually be released, even if it did take a lot longer than anyone had expected…
Gary The nice thing was that, although we’d split-up, we all stayed friends and it felt more like a natural thing rather than there being any animosity. Marco left, the rest of us continued for a while until Max left, and then we became Mass. But the fact that we remained on good terms and that there were other recordings meant that there was a chance that more Rema Rema material would eventually be released. As the recordings were still available to us, it seemed a shame for them to not be heard, so I made sure that it happened. I’m not so sure if would have happened had I not been around to put everything together, as it was a bit of a love-thing for me and I really had to push things. The first thing I did was the ‘International Scale’ single with ‘Defiant Pose’ fanzine. Michael had got in touch with me because I had stacks of old hand-outs and punk rock memorabilia and I decided to sell it. I really don’t think I need a poster of Sid Vicious on my wall anymore ! Anyway, Michael bought some of the old Rema Rema handouts from me and he’d written to see where they’d come from… my girlfriend was selling them for me online, so she told him who I was and then he started asking me about what I was doing now. Anyway, when I got to know him a bit better, I suggested that I could give him a couple of old tracks and he could put them out as a single. I just said it would have it to be done properly, with nice sleeve artwork and the proper type-set. He was really enthusiastic about it, so it all came together.
Had you always intended to keep an archive of original band recordings ?
Gary No, we just used to record things so that we could listen-back to what we were doing. I had lots of old cassettes, but it was Mark who had all of the old reel-to-reel tapes. I’d been trying to get them back for years but he was always a bit of a magpie. I don’t think he was ever going to do anything with them, but I felt that I would probably be able to do something. It took a few years, but I eventually got them and then I was able to put together the ‘International Scale’ single for Michaels’ fanzine. I always thought that was a great song and the single came together really well.
And then, a year later, the ‘Entry/Exit’ 12” and the Remix 12”, ‘What You Could Not Visualise’, were released. So the interest in the band was definitely being piqued once again…
Max It’s intriguing that the interest has remained and, to give him the credit, I think Gary has done a massive amount to maintain that interest and make sure that it continues. He’s the one that’s taken these old cassettes that we have from gigs and rehearsals and turns them into something that you can actually listen to in the 21st Century. We all have to give him due credit for that.
Did it take much to persuade 4AD into releasing the album ?
Gary No, not at all. I only really had to deal with one person there, Steve Webben, who had originally worked with Ivo in a record shop. He deals with all the back catalogue stuff, now. Personally, I didn’t think they could go wrong with a new Rema Rema record. I’m sure there are quite a few people who will be interested in hearing it, especially as it has so much stuff that’s never been available before. I know I’d buy it ! But I think the response to the 7” and the 12” singles probably helped to show that there was still interest in Rema Rema. I think there had always been a certain amount of intrigue because we’d only released that one EP and not many people had got to see us live. But people knew that there must have been other material and so, to actually get to hear these things years down the line, was something that they wanted. And, from the feedback we received, it seemed that those single releases lived up to expectations. We also had this mystique that not many people really knew that much about us, even if they had the original EP. But at the same time, those that have got that record tend to be pretty passionate about it.
Some of the tracks on the album sound as if they were still ‘works-in-progress’ and could still have been developed further… there was still a lot of potential in what the band were doing.
Gary I’d say the tracks on the album were kind of like the Road to Damascus for us. We were still realising what we could do and trying to make the most of it. When you listen to the a-side of ‘Wheel in the Roses’, that was like us saying, ‘We’ve arrived’, while there are tracks on the album that were heading towards what we could do next, so I’d agree that we still had a lot of potential.
I think the best thing about it is the way that it’s presented as a real album, rather than just a random selection of recordings. It gives a sense of what a Rema Rema album could have achieved…
Max Yeah, I think a lot of work has gone in to ensuring that it sounds that way. The songs were created in a relatively short space of time and we were playing them as a solid set, so that’s why the album comes across as being pretty coherent. There a few later tracks, but most of it comes from the time we went into that underground cavern down Portobello Road and just recorded everything that we had. It was pretty much the same set as what we played when we played our first gig on the 1st January, 1979. We took all of the material that we’d been playing-around with and put it into a coherent set-list.
Gary One of the things I like about this album is that ‘Entry’ is now alongside the other tracks that we recorded at Pathway and you can hear exactly where we were and where we were going when we made those recordings.
Gary No, not at all. I only really had to deal with one person there, Steve Webben, who had originally worked with Ivo in a record shop. He deals with all the back catalogue stuff, now. Personally, I didn’t think they could go wrong with a new Rema Rema record. I’m sure there are quite a few people who will be interested in hearing it, especially as it has so much stuff that’s never been available before. I know I’d buy it ! But I think the response to the 7” and the 12” singles probably helped to show that there was still interest in Rema Rema. I think there had always been a certain amount of intrigue because we’d only released that one EP and not many people had got to see us live. But people knew that there must have been other material and so, to actually get to hear these things years down the line, was something that they wanted. And, from the feedback we received, it seemed that those single releases lived up to expectations. We also had this mystique that not many people really knew that much about us, even if they had the original EP. But at the same time, those that have got that record tend to be pretty passionate about it.
Some of the tracks on the album sound as if they were still ‘works-in-progress’ and could still have been developed further… there was still a lot of potential in what the band were doing.
Gary I’d say the tracks on the album were kind of like the Road to Damascus for us. We were still realising what we could do and trying to make the most of it. When you listen to the a-side of ‘Wheel in the Roses’, that was like us saying, ‘We’ve arrived’, while there are tracks on the album that were heading towards what we could do next, so I’d agree that we still had a lot of potential.
I think the best thing about it is the way that it’s presented as a real album, rather than just a random selection of recordings. It gives a sense of what a Rema Rema album could have achieved…
Max Yeah, I think a lot of work has gone in to ensuring that it sounds that way. The songs were created in a relatively short space of time and we were playing them as a solid set, so that’s why the album comes across as being pretty coherent. There a few later tracks, but most of it comes from the time we went into that underground cavern down Portobello Road and just recorded everything that we had. It was pretty much the same set as what we played when we played our first gig on the 1st January, 1979. We took all of the material that we’d been playing-around with and put it into a coherent set-list.
Gary One of the things I like about this album is that ‘Entry’ is now alongside the other tracks that we recorded at Pathway and you can hear exactly where we were and where we were going when we made those recordings.
Does this album finally round-up everything, or are there any other tracks that you couldn’t include ?
Gary I mentioned the ‘Ring of Roses’ track earlier on… We never had a chance to complete it but an instrumental version of it will be coming out on the CD with the ‘Small Doses’ fanzine. There was a version we taped with vocals on it but it just wasn’t very good. Max also came up with some lyrics that we used for a song called ‘Laurence Harvey’. We wanted to include that on this album, but we didn’t have a good-enough recording of it, unfortunately. The other thing we used to do was a cover of ‘Jack the Ripper’, by Screaming Lord Sutch. We kind of took it from the original and then did it in our own way… It’s a great song. We played it at the Rainbow when we opened for the Banshees and there’s a recording of that but the sound is really booming so we decided it wasn’t good enough for the album, unfortunately. I wish we’d had a chance to record it properly… It was me and Marco that really wanted to play it. Everyone else thought it was a bit too rock’n’roll, but it’s still a fucking great song !
What else have you been involved with in recent years ?
Max I stopped playing drums after I left Psychic TV and focused more on my other life as a dancer. I was busy trying to get dance-teaching qualifications and all of those kind of things. I had my first child after I moved down to Brighton and since then I’ve had two more. When I emerged from the blur of those years, my focus went more on dance, theatre and Performance Art. I have done some sound-work, but only with installations and soundscapes rather than band-projects. My husband Foz, who’s played in the Monochrome Set and also with David Devant, is mostly a composer for live performance and film now, so we’ve done a number of things together. It’s still an interest in sound, but taking it in a different direction rather than playing it live.
Gary Renegade Soundwave were together between 1987 and 1996, although in some ways I’d say that it isn’t actually dead. It’s the sort of thing that can never die… I still have a lot of passion towards what we did and as long as I still feel that way, it could always return. It’s the same way that I feel about Rema Rema… it’s still in my heart so I still have ambitions for it, even if we don’t actually ‘reform’. Neither thing was ever completely realised and that means there are still possibilities, even though they may never come together. All I can do is try my best to make sure that the legacies are maintained and hopefully take them forward. If at some point in the future, it makes sense for something to happen again, then it will. But at the moment, I’m involved with the Lavender Pill Mob, along with Kevin Mooney, and also the Free Rivers thing with Mick, which is possibly more in line with what we did with Rema Rema… we’ve actually rehearsed a few old Rema Rema things with Free Rivers and I think they would work in the way that we do them. Obviously, it’s updated and done in a different way, but I think it would be good. But we’ve had problems setting-up gigs so far, which is annoying as we want people to hear what we’re doing and if promoters won’t let you play it becomes awkward. I just like getting my stuff out there. I do think it’s weird that Mick and I are doing songs together again after so much time, but right now it makes sense, so we have to do it !
Gary I mentioned the ‘Ring of Roses’ track earlier on… We never had a chance to complete it but an instrumental version of it will be coming out on the CD with the ‘Small Doses’ fanzine. There was a version we taped with vocals on it but it just wasn’t very good. Max also came up with some lyrics that we used for a song called ‘Laurence Harvey’. We wanted to include that on this album, but we didn’t have a good-enough recording of it, unfortunately. The other thing we used to do was a cover of ‘Jack the Ripper’, by Screaming Lord Sutch. We kind of took it from the original and then did it in our own way… It’s a great song. We played it at the Rainbow when we opened for the Banshees and there’s a recording of that but the sound is really booming so we decided it wasn’t good enough for the album, unfortunately. I wish we’d had a chance to record it properly… It was me and Marco that really wanted to play it. Everyone else thought it was a bit too rock’n’roll, but it’s still a fucking great song !
What else have you been involved with in recent years ?
Max I stopped playing drums after I left Psychic TV and focused more on my other life as a dancer. I was busy trying to get dance-teaching qualifications and all of those kind of things. I had my first child after I moved down to Brighton and since then I’ve had two more. When I emerged from the blur of those years, my focus went more on dance, theatre and Performance Art. I have done some sound-work, but only with installations and soundscapes rather than band-projects. My husband Foz, who’s played in the Monochrome Set and also with David Devant, is mostly a composer for live performance and film now, so we’ve done a number of things together. It’s still an interest in sound, but taking it in a different direction rather than playing it live.
Gary Renegade Soundwave were together between 1987 and 1996, although in some ways I’d say that it isn’t actually dead. It’s the sort of thing that can never die… I still have a lot of passion towards what we did and as long as I still feel that way, it could always return. It’s the same way that I feel about Rema Rema… it’s still in my heart so I still have ambitions for it, even if we don’t actually ‘reform’. Neither thing was ever completely realised and that means there are still possibilities, even though they may never come together. All I can do is try my best to make sure that the legacies are maintained and hopefully take them forward. If at some point in the future, it makes sense for something to happen again, then it will. But at the moment, I’m involved with the Lavender Pill Mob, along with Kevin Mooney, and also the Free Rivers thing with Mick, which is possibly more in line with what we did with Rema Rema… we’ve actually rehearsed a few old Rema Rema things with Free Rivers and I think they would work in the way that we do them. Obviously, it’s updated and done in a different way, but I think it would be good. But we’ve had problems setting-up gigs so far, which is annoying as we want people to hear what we’re doing and if promoters won’t let you play it becomes awkward. I just like getting my stuff out there. I do think it’s weird that Mick and I are doing songs together again after so much time, but right now it makes sense, so we have to do it !
My conversation with Max ended when she had to return to Rough Trade for the album-launch event. My conversation with Gary ended when the barman called last orders, although as we were drinking-up, he did take time to try to convince me that I should rename one of my cats ‘Rema Rema’… that would sound interesting when I was trying to call-her back to the house !
Anyway, I hope this has helped to explain why, after nearly four decades, an album of previously-unavailable Rema Rema material is such an exciting event. You really have to hear it to understand what I mean, as musically there are no obvious bands that you can compare them to. Rema Rema created something that was unique and still sounds remarkably valid. This album is something that you need to hear and, until you do so, you’re life will remain incomplete !
Anyway, I hope this has helped to explain why, after nearly four decades, an album of previously-unavailable Rema Rema material is such an exciting event. You really have to hear it to understand what I mean, as musically there are no obvious bands that you can compare them to. Rema Rema created something that was unique and still sounds remarkably valid. This album is something that you need to hear and, until you do so, you’re life will remain incomplete !
