I expect most of you will already know about Flag by this point, but just in case, here’s a quick catch-up. In the Summer of 2011, Keith Morris and Chuck Dukowski were approached by the band No Age to join them for a short set of Black Flag songs. This was the first time they had played together in over thirty years and they enjoyed doing so, but had no plans to treat this as anything more than a one-off. However, at the end of the year, Chuck was contacted by Gary Tovar of Goldenvoice (one of the few booking agencies who had supported Black Flag during the Eighties) asking him to come along to their 30th Anniversary concert and make a short speech. Chuck immediately got a better idea and, this time with Keith, Bill Stevenson and Stephen Egerton, organised a short set consisting of the four songs from the ‘Nervous Breakdown’ EP, which would be performed before the Descendents played their headline set. Although unannounced, unadvertised and only lasting a mere ten minutes, the set created a real buzz of excitement and while, again, it had only been intended as a one-off, it sowed the seeds for future plans.
With the various individuals busy with their own lives and music, it wasn’t until 2013 that the band was able to announce further gigs. By this time they had also been joined by another former Black Flag member, Dez Cadena, so they decided to use the name ‘FLAG’ as a reference to their past without claiming to be the same the same thing. Considering the people involved, this seemed to be a fair statement but, unfortunately, original guitarist and main songwriter Greg Ginn took immediate umbrage to their plans. As well as issuing various legal writs to stop them performing, he also announced that he would be ‘reforming’ Black Flag himself, with vocalist Ron Reyes, to tour and record a new album. Things then became complicated. A Court hearing found in favour of Flag’s right to perform as such, while the new Black Flag album was released to an underwhelming response. Their subsequent touring was cut-short when Ron Reyes was sacked – onstage ! – leaving Black Flag with only one original member. Which really means that it’s now the Greg Ginn solo band... but he has the name so he’s going to use it.
With the various individuals busy with their own lives and music, it wasn’t until 2013 that the band was able to announce further gigs. By this time they had also been joined by another former Black Flag member, Dez Cadena, so they decided to use the name ‘FLAG’ as a reference to their past without claiming to be the same the same thing. Considering the people involved, this seemed to be a fair statement but, unfortunately, original guitarist and main songwriter Greg Ginn took immediate umbrage to their plans. As well as issuing various legal writs to stop them performing, he also announced that he would be ‘reforming’ Black Flag himself, with vocalist Ron Reyes, to tour and record a new album. Things then became complicated. A Court hearing found in favour of Flag’s right to perform as such, while the new Black Flag album was released to an underwhelming response. Their subsequent touring was cut-short when Ron Reyes was sacked – onstage ! – leaving Black Flag with only one original member. Which really means that it’s now the Greg Ginn solo band... but he has the name so he’s going to use it.
Anyway, after waiting with bated-breath, it’s finally announced that Flag will be coming to the UK to play
Rebellion festival and two dates at Camden Underworld. An interview is, of course, a priority, but first-things-first, I arrive early on the afternoon of the first gig to catch-up with my old friends Bill & Stephen. As luck would have it, I get there just as they’ve ended their sound-check and are preparing to go for some food. Bill, being the curry fanatic that he is, has already arranged a visit to a locally-recommended Indian restaurant and invites me along. Good chance to chat with him and Stephen, plus Chuck Dukowski comes along, who I’ve never met before in person (although I did an interview by telephone a few years ago.) Once in the restaurant, food and drinks are ordered and Bill enquires about the availability of a Phall dish, even though it isn’t on the menu… To his evident glee, they’re happy to prepare one for him, which he subsequently shares among everyone else. No doubt the next Descendents album will be opened with the soon-to-be-penned
‘I like Phall, Phall tastes good…’
Back at the Underworld, the venue is already filling-up and it’s soon time for the support band, South London’s finest, Hardskin. Having already warned Bill and Stephen what to expect, it’s no surprise when Fat Bob introduces the set with the inspired declaration, ‘We’re Skin… playing the songs of Hardskin !’ Of course, the banter is all in good humour although there’s no denying that, musically, the boots went in – hard ! There was the satisfying crunch of splintering riffs as Johnny Takeaway wielded his guitar like a cosh and Nipper gave the drums a good beating. All this and it’s still only the opening band !
It doesn’t take Flag long to get ready for their own set and as soon as they assemble onstage, Keith Morris murmers the opening line, ‘It’s not my imagination…’ before screaming, ‘I’ve got a gun on my back !’ The band launch into ‘Revenge’ and it’s instantly apparent just how good they’re going to be, with the two guitars of Stephen and Dez leading the assault, Bill and Chuck hold-down the relentless rhythm, while Keith directs the proceedings from the front. The songs are blasted-out at a furious pace, with all the flair and attitude that they deserve. Stephen fills the lead-guitar space so confidently and effectively that I doubt that anyone is left missing Greg Ginn and, while the set consists of material that’s over thirty years old, it’s played with such conviction that it neither sounds or feels dated. ‘Depression’, ‘Rise Above’, ‘Jealous Again’, and an absolutely stunning version of ‘My War’ keep everyone on their toes, before Keith leaves the stage to allow Dez a turn on vocals. He growls through ‘American Waste’, ‘Spray Paint’, ‘Thirsty & Miserable’, ‘Padded Cell’ and ‘Six Pack’ before Keith returns to end the set with ‘Nervous Breakdown’ and ‘Louie Louie’. A short break follows before the band are called back by an insistent audience, to end the night with a brisk ‘I’ve Heard It Before’ and a magnificent, sprawling ‘Damaged 1’. It had been one of those sets that left pretty-much everyone in the venue out of breath. This was something special and while the set was never going to
have the same impact as it would have done in, say, 1981, it was still something quite extraordinary.
Afterwards, I make arrangements to interview Chuck the following evening, bid farewell to everyone else, and head home feeling rather elated from the proceedings.
Rebellion festival and two dates at Camden Underworld. An interview is, of course, a priority, but first-things-first, I arrive early on the afternoon of the first gig to catch-up with my old friends Bill & Stephen. As luck would have it, I get there just as they’ve ended their sound-check and are preparing to go for some food. Bill, being the curry fanatic that he is, has already arranged a visit to a locally-recommended Indian restaurant and invites me along. Good chance to chat with him and Stephen, plus Chuck Dukowski comes along, who I’ve never met before in person (although I did an interview by telephone a few years ago.) Once in the restaurant, food and drinks are ordered and Bill enquires about the availability of a Phall dish, even though it isn’t on the menu… To his evident glee, they’re happy to prepare one for him, which he subsequently shares among everyone else. No doubt the next Descendents album will be opened with the soon-to-be-penned
‘I like Phall, Phall tastes good…’
Back at the Underworld, the venue is already filling-up and it’s soon time for the support band, South London’s finest, Hardskin. Having already warned Bill and Stephen what to expect, it’s no surprise when Fat Bob introduces the set with the inspired declaration, ‘We’re Skin… playing the songs of Hardskin !’ Of course, the banter is all in good humour although there’s no denying that, musically, the boots went in – hard ! There was the satisfying crunch of splintering riffs as Johnny Takeaway wielded his guitar like a cosh and Nipper gave the drums a good beating. All this and it’s still only the opening band !
It doesn’t take Flag long to get ready for their own set and as soon as they assemble onstage, Keith Morris murmers the opening line, ‘It’s not my imagination…’ before screaming, ‘I’ve got a gun on my back !’ The band launch into ‘Revenge’ and it’s instantly apparent just how good they’re going to be, with the two guitars of Stephen and Dez leading the assault, Bill and Chuck hold-down the relentless rhythm, while Keith directs the proceedings from the front. The songs are blasted-out at a furious pace, with all the flair and attitude that they deserve. Stephen fills the lead-guitar space so confidently and effectively that I doubt that anyone is left missing Greg Ginn and, while the set consists of material that’s over thirty years old, it’s played with such conviction that it neither sounds or feels dated. ‘Depression’, ‘Rise Above’, ‘Jealous Again’, and an absolutely stunning version of ‘My War’ keep everyone on their toes, before Keith leaves the stage to allow Dez a turn on vocals. He growls through ‘American Waste’, ‘Spray Paint’, ‘Thirsty & Miserable’, ‘Padded Cell’ and ‘Six Pack’ before Keith returns to end the set with ‘Nervous Breakdown’ and ‘Louie Louie’. A short break follows before the band are called back by an insistent audience, to end the night with a brisk ‘I’ve Heard It Before’ and a magnificent, sprawling ‘Damaged 1’. It had been one of those sets that left pretty-much everyone in the venue out of breath. This was something special and while the set was never going to
have the same impact as it would have done in, say, 1981, it was still something quite extraordinary.
Afterwards, I make arrangements to interview Chuck the following evening, bid farewell to everyone else, and head home feeling rather elated from the proceedings.
I have to endure another day at work in between, but eventually head back to Camden, meet up with Chuck and find a relatively quiet spot in the Worlds End to go ahead with the interview. Firstly, I wanted to ask about the period when he first started playing with Greg and Keith, alongside first drummer Bryan Migdol. At that point, the band were still called Panic. Was the music they were playing essentially the same as Black Flag, or were there any real differences between them ?
‘When I joined the band it was still called Panic but it morphed into Black Flag. At that point it was really just Keith and Greg and I joined them at first just to help them record ‘Nervous Breakdown’. But then they asked me to join them full-time as they couldn’t find a bass player. I had also been in a band called Wurm at the same time, but when that ended they invited me to be their bass player. So we started to rehearse but didn’t play any shows apart from maybe two or three parties. During 1978, Greg got a rehearsal place together for us and we started looking for a permanent drummer, because Greg was having a beef with Bryan. I don’t really know what that was about, because I was still pretty new to the band, but I think Greg thought Bryan didn’t really have it in him to commit to the band, or something like that. One day our drummer just disappeared and Greg announced, ‘Bryan is no longer playing with us !’ So we needed to get a new drummer and we got someone to put a flyer up for us in a local record store. Later in the Summer we got a call from a guy called Roberto. He answered the advert and came down to rehearse with us, where he quickly became known as Robo… Once we started playing with him, that was when we started to get serious. It had really been the same set of songs all the way through, although the sound was perhaps a little more upbeat to begin with. I think you can hear that in the first single. The single really captures Panic rather than what Black Flag was to become. If you want to hear what Panic sounded like, there it is. It’s pretty similar, really, but it’s more of that side of Black Flag. But when we actually became Black Flag, it was something that Greg and I had talked about even before I joined Panic full-time. We had been spending some time together and we decided we should have another band that played heavier music, you know ? Still in the same direction as Panic, but just heavier. More like the sound that Black Flag eventually came to be. That’s why the name was so natural for us, because we’d tossed it around when we were talking about doing our own band in ’77. When we came to release the ‘Nervous Breakdown’ single, we discovered that there was already another band called Panic over here in England. I think they spelled it with a ‘k’, but whatever it was, they were already called The Panik. Once that came to light, we were concerned that they were already using the name and decided we had to change our name to avoid confusion. We started talking about a new name and Greg’s brother, Raymond, reminded him about the name Black Flag. We were all just, ‘Fuck, yeah !’, and decided that’s what we should be. For me, I liked the name because I’d always liked Black Sabbath, so it was cool that they were referenced, plus there was a reference to anarchy, which was perfect for a punk rock band… Although with us, it was more of reference to the wild and crazy side of punk rock rather than a political statement.’
‘When I joined the band it was still called Panic but it morphed into Black Flag. At that point it was really just Keith and Greg and I joined them at first just to help them record ‘Nervous Breakdown’. But then they asked me to join them full-time as they couldn’t find a bass player. I had also been in a band called Wurm at the same time, but when that ended they invited me to be their bass player. So we started to rehearse but didn’t play any shows apart from maybe two or three parties. During 1978, Greg got a rehearsal place together for us and we started looking for a permanent drummer, because Greg was having a beef with Bryan. I don’t really know what that was about, because I was still pretty new to the band, but I think Greg thought Bryan didn’t really have it in him to commit to the band, or something like that. One day our drummer just disappeared and Greg announced, ‘Bryan is no longer playing with us !’ So we needed to get a new drummer and we got someone to put a flyer up for us in a local record store. Later in the Summer we got a call from a guy called Roberto. He answered the advert and came down to rehearse with us, where he quickly became known as Robo… Once we started playing with him, that was when we started to get serious. It had really been the same set of songs all the way through, although the sound was perhaps a little more upbeat to begin with. I think you can hear that in the first single. The single really captures Panic rather than what Black Flag was to become. If you want to hear what Panic sounded like, there it is. It’s pretty similar, really, but it’s more of that side of Black Flag. But when we actually became Black Flag, it was something that Greg and I had talked about even before I joined Panic full-time. We had been spending some time together and we decided we should have another band that played heavier music, you know ? Still in the same direction as Panic, but just heavier. More like the sound that Black Flag eventually came to be. That’s why the name was so natural for us, because we’d tossed it around when we were talking about doing our own band in ’77. When we came to release the ‘Nervous Breakdown’ single, we discovered that there was already another band called Panic over here in England. I think they spelled it with a ‘k’, but whatever it was, they were already called The Panik. Once that came to light, we were concerned that they were already using the name and decided we had to change our name to avoid confusion. We started talking about a new name and Greg’s brother, Raymond, reminded him about the name Black Flag. We were all just, ‘Fuck, yeah !’, and decided that’s what we should be. For me, I liked the name because I’d always liked Black Sabbath, so it was cool that they were referenced, plus there was a reference to anarchy, which was perfect for a punk rock band… Although with us, it was more of reference to the wild and crazy side of punk rock rather than a political statement.’
I must admit, when I first heard about Black Flag, I assumed the band were going to be more overtly political because of the name. The anarcho-punk scene was really big in the UK at that time and American bands like the Dead Kennedys and MDC were also making themselves known in the UK, so it wouldn’t have been entirely unlikely that a band called Black Flag were also going to be that way inclined…
‘We weren’t so overt or sloganeering and we weren’t very constructivist. If you’re going to try and get a take on our politics, they weren’t very constructivist at all. We were saying more, like, break it loose and burn it down… That’s not unlike what the Pistols were saying, really. They had a stated anarchist-outlook, but it wasn’t a constructivist one. People like Crass and whatever, I sympathise with what they were saying, but they were constructivist while Black Flag was not. But I liked the anarchist reference… and I also liked the bug-spray reference ! There were a lot of different references in that name, as well as the emotional reference to Black Sabbath. All of that worked really well for me, so I was like, yeah, let’s go ! That was mid-78 and that’s when we really got busy. We turned-up the heat on our rehearsing, even though we still weren’t playing any real gigs, but we got good at it and made sure that Robo was right for it. We wrote a few more songs and finally we played our first shows. I think the first one was at the Moose Lodge in Redondo, followed by a companion show in San Pedro, which was where we met the Minutemen.’
Did you feel separate from the Punk scene that was already going on in Hollywood, originally centering around The Masque…
‘We went to see bands playing in that scene, but we weren’t part of it. They weren’t very open to what we were about. I think Greg was probably quite competitive with them and they could be quite competitive about us. I think some of those people in Hollywood had a distrust of people who came from the Beach. They sort of thought we were all going to be kind of redneck, athletic assholes, you know ? We didn’t really dress the part of being any different than the people who lived around where we were, so they thought we were just going to be the same as those people.’
I get the impression that the Hollywood punk scene came more form a kind of Art College / Bowie / Glam background, rather than the harder rock influences that Black Flag was coming from ?
‘Well, they were all into the British scene and coming from the Glam thing much more than us. I mean, not that we weren’t to some extent, but I think they were more reactionary towards the Seventies Hard Rock bands that we listened to, like Black Sabbath, Aerosmith, or Blue Oyster Cult. They were mostly very reactionary against that kind of music, but I didn’t feel that way towards those bands. I just thought that things had gone too far towards the likes of Steely Dan and the Eagles. Now that was the kind of thing I was against ! I still liked Black Sabbath and Blue Oyster Cult… they were kind of doing the same thing as Punk Rock, playing the music hard.’
‘We weren’t so overt or sloganeering and we weren’t very constructivist. If you’re going to try and get a take on our politics, they weren’t very constructivist at all. We were saying more, like, break it loose and burn it down… That’s not unlike what the Pistols were saying, really. They had a stated anarchist-outlook, but it wasn’t a constructivist one. People like Crass and whatever, I sympathise with what they were saying, but they were constructivist while Black Flag was not. But I liked the anarchist reference… and I also liked the bug-spray reference ! There were a lot of different references in that name, as well as the emotional reference to Black Sabbath. All of that worked really well for me, so I was like, yeah, let’s go ! That was mid-78 and that’s when we really got busy. We turned-up the heat on our rehearsing, even though we still weren’t playing any real gigs, but we got good at it and made sure that Robo was right for it. We wrote a few more songs and finally we played our first shows. I think the first one was at the Moose Lodge in Redondo, followed by a companion show in San Pedro, which was where we met the Minutemen.’
Did you feel separate from the Punk scene that was already going on in Hollywood, originally centering around The Masque…
‘We went to see bands playing in that scene, but we weren’t part of it. They weren’t very open to what we were about. I think Greg was probably quite competitive with them and they could be quite competitive about us. I think some of those people in Hollywood had a distrust of people who came from the Beach. They sort of thought we were all going to be kind of redneck, athletic assholes, you know ? We didn’t really dress the part of being any different than the people who lived around where we were, so they thought we were just going to be the same as those people.’
I get the impression that the Hollywood punk scene came more form a kind of Art College / Bowie / Glam background, rather than the harder rock influences that Black Flag was coming from ?
‘Well, they were all into the British scene and coming from the Glam thing much more than us. I mean, not that we weren’t to some extent, but I think they were more reactionary towards the Seventies Hard Rock bands that we listened to, like Black Sabbath, Aerosmith, or Blue Oyster Cult. They were mostly very reactionary against that kind of music, but I didn’t feel that way towards those bands. I just thought that things had gone too far towards the likes of Steely Dan and the Eagles. Now that was the kind of thing I was against ! I still liked Black Sabbath and Blue Oyster Cult… they were kind of doing the same thing as Punk Rock, playing the music hard.’
When you actually started playing out, how do you think that affected the way Black Flag was developing ?
‘We played those two shows I mentioned, then we played this show in a park, then we started playing at all of the clubs that would give us a chance. At the two first shows people liked what we did, but we also had other bands paid playing on the bill with us, who we had to pay. I think it was The Alleycats, The Plugs and Rhino 39… We all still had jobs at that point, so we had a little money and we already liked their bands so they agreed to help us out. That was the way that the Punk underground first found out what we were all about and they liked it. We’d also already made our first record, so they could get that from us right away. We’d recorded it almost a whole year earlier, which made me realise that even Punk Rock bands had to adopt a patient, persistent mindset. Everything takes longer than they try to make you think in school… They try to make you think that everything will happen in just a few months, before the term is over, but real life can take a lot longer than that.’
The first single initially came out with a pretty different sleeve design to what it eventually became…
‘I think we did at least a thousand copies of that first single, so when that sold-through, we made more and were able to get a much better-made sleeve. We didn’t really know how to do it, initially, so we’d just got the same people who made the flyers to print those fold-over sleeves for us. When we did the second pressing, we sent it to different people to print the sleeves, but those ones were kind of smeared and it wasn’t until after then that we found out the best way to do it, through the pressing plant. Ray did all the art for the first single and he was always kind of slick, you know ? He also did the hand-lettering for the band-name. We didn’t even have the logo at that point… I always wanted to have a logo, so when Ray came up with that, we changed the text so we could put it on the flyers and make it so you could read it from afar, when you were walking-by. I think it was Greg who suggested that we should change the text from that first sleeve, so that it would be easier to read, and I agreed that it would be a good idea because I knew that it was an important part of what we were trying to do. We didn’t have much experience doing that before then, but when I was at college I’d studied movies and live-music performance and I learned what would work on flyers, so that people could read them as they walked-by without stopping… We’d put as many as possible on one telegraph pole and again on the next pole, and the next ones, so by the time you were done, anyone walking-by would know about the next Black Flag show ! I’d been studying how they did that for movies, so I just applied that to what we were doing. The other side of it was that I always admired Ray’s Art and I thought that it brought a lot of emotional strength to our visual presentation, so there would be a lot of expectation that something special would be happening at our events. It was something that would differentiate us from all the other bands. I thought it was very important to stick with that, even though, off and on, Greg and Ray would be having trouble with each other. I realised that we really needed to stick with Ray because it was such an important statement of what we were doing, so I made sure we did what we had to do to stay with him. I mean, even beyond the visuals, his discourse was so intellectually-exciting and it helped us to form the stance for what we were doing. A lot of it was his input. What he was doing was challenging Punk Rock as well as everything else. I thought it was cool, like when he used images of Charles Manson… he was using the idea of an aggressive, violent deviant, but with this kind of typically Californian, sexy imagery. It would be really dark, but it wasn’t like a bondage and discipline kind of darkness. What you would react to would be the emotional content and I thought that was really powerful.’
‘We played those two shows I mentioned, then we played this show in a park, then we started playing at all of the clubs that would give us a chance. At the two first shows people liked what we did, but we also had other bands paid playing on the bill with us, who we had to pay. I think it was The Alleycats, The Plugs and Rhino 39… We all still had jobs at that point, so we had a little money and we already liked their bands so they agreed to help us out. That was the way that the Punk underground first found out what we were all about and they liked it. We’d also already made our first record, so they could get that from us right away. We’d recorded it almost a whole year earlier, which made me realise that even Punk Rock bands had to adopt a patient, persistent mindset. Everything takes longer than they try to make you think in school… They try to make you think that everything will happen in just a few months, before the term is over, but real life can take a lot longer than that.’
The first single initially came out with a pretty different sleeve design to what it eventually became…
‘I think we did at least a thousand copies of that first single, so when that sold-through, we made more and were able to get a much better-made sleeve. We didn’t really know how to do it, initially, so we’d just got the same people who made the flyers to print those fold-over sleeves for us. When we did the second pressing, we sent it to different people to print the sleeves, but those ones were kind of smeared and it wasn’t until after then that we found out the best way to do it, through the pressing plant. Ray did all the art for the first single and he was always kind of slick, you know ? He also did the hand-lettering for the band-name. We didn’t even have the logo at that point… I always wanted to have a logo, so when Ray came up with that, we changed the text so we could put it on the flyers and make it so you could read it from afar, when you were walking-by. I think it was Greg who suggested that we should change the text from that first sleeve, so that it would be easier to read, and I agreed that it would be a good idea because I knew that it was an important part of what we were trying to do. We didn’t have much experience doing that before then, but when I was at college I’d studied movies and live-music performance and I learned what would work on flyers, so that people could read them as they walked-by without stopping… We’d put as many as possible on one telegraph pole and again on the next pole, and the next ones, so by the time you were done, anyone walking-by would know about the next Black Flag show ! I’d been studying how they did that for movies, so I just applied that to what we were doing. The other side of it was that I always admired Ray’s Art and I thought that it brought a lot of emotional strength to our visual presentation, so there would be a lot of expectation that something special would be happening at our events. It was something that would differentiate us from all the other bands. I thought it was very important to stick with that, even though, off and on, Greg and Ray would be having trouble with each other. I realised that we really needed to stick with Ray because it was such an important statement of what we were doing, so I made sure we did what we had to do to stay with him. I mean, even beyond the visuals, his discourse was so intellectually-exciting and it helped us to form the stance for what we were doing. A lot of it was his input. What he was doing was challenging Punk Rock as well as everything else. I thought it was cool, like when he used images of Charles Manson… he was using the idea of an aggressive, violent deviant, but with this kind of typically Californian, sexy imagery. It would be really dark, but it wasn’t like a bondage and discipline kind of darkness. What you would react to would be the emotional content and I thought that was really powerful.’
Even from the early songs, Black Flags’ music was very idiosyncratic. When you hear other people trying to play those songs, they very rarely get it just right…
‘The trick is in the rhythm. It’s not complicated, note-wise, but the power and the hooks are all in the rhythm. There’s a swing to it and you have to work to get that. I think a lot of good music has that kind of element to it, where there’s something interesting happening rhythmically that gives it physical momentum and makes it memorable. Anyone can just play the notes that are supposed to be there, but if you want to make it stand-out you have to enunciate the rhythm, and that’s what gives it the swing.’
I think that’s why Stephen fits-in so well as part of the Flag line-up, because he appreciates those things…
‘Well, he’s a fan and also a very accomplished musician. He’s been a fan all along… I mean, I first met Stephen from way-before he was even in the Descendents, when Black Flag played in Salt Lake City in 1980, or whatever it was. He had a band back then called Massacre Guys, who reminded me more of TSOL, but he had also done a fair amount of time studying Classical guitar. He really is an accomplished musician and that allows him to have a full and real appreciation of the subtleties in our music. He’s actually bringing a lot more to it, especially now. When we started this in 2013, I thought it would be a challenge just to get it to the point of doing it well enough so that it was where it should be. But since then, he’s taken it beyond that. He’s comfortable with it and he’s not just trying to be on top of it. You can hear it, especially in his lead-playing. It’s really got fucking great ! I’ve been really excited with his playing, particularly this last year. I feel that there’s real excellence going on there and his lead-playing is really something else. We’ve turned into a real band. Stephen was asked to step-out and get nuts with it, in the context of being thrown-against all those rhythmic twists. I mean, just the reputation of Black Flag means that he was being asked to fill some shoes that once played some crazy guitar ! But, to me, he far out-strips the original model by now.’
‘The trick is in the rhythm. It’s not complicated, note-wise, but the power and the hooks are all in the rhythm. There’s a swing to it and you have to work to get that. I think a lot of good music has that kind of element to it, where there’s something interesting happening rhythmically that gives it physical momentum and makes it memorable. Anyone can just play the notes that are supposed to be there, but if you want to make it stand-out you have to enunciate the rhythm, and that’s what gives it the swing.’
I think that’s why Stephen fits-in so well as part of the Flag line-up, because he appreciates those things…
‘Well, he’s a fan and also a very accomplished musician. He’s been a fan all along… I mean, I first met Stephen from way-before he was even in the Descendents, when Black Flag played in Salt Lake City in 1980, or whatever it was. He had a band back then called Massacre Guys, who reminded me more of TSOL, but he had also done a fair amount of time studying Classical guitar. He really is an accomplished musician and that allows him to have a full and real appreciation of the subtleties in our music. He’s actually bringing a lot more to it, especially now. When we started this in 2013, I thought it would be a challenge just to get it to the point of doing it well enough so that it was where it should be. But since then, he’s taken it beyond that. He’s comfortable with it and he’s not just trying to be on top of it. You can hear it, especially in his lead-playing. It’s really got fucking great ! I’ve been really excited with his playing, particularly this last year. I feel that there’s real excellence going on there and his lead-playing is really something else. We’ve turned into a real band. Stephen was asked to step-out and get nuts with it, in the context of being thrown-against all those rhythmic twists. I mean, just the reputation of Black Flag means that he was being asked to fill some shoes that once played some crazy guitar ! But, to me, he far out-strips the original model by now.’
I guess the roots of you guys playing together as Flag really originated when you and Keith played with the band No Age…
‘That was the very first step. That was the thing that brought Keith and I together again. We hadn’t really talked much since the Eighties, apart from once or twice on the phone, maybe, and one time I saw him when he was doing a spoken-word thing, but even then I only spoke to him for a minute or two. So we didn’t really spend any time together until those No Age guys asked us to do that thing with them. I already knew those guys because my oldest boy, Milo, was friends with them. He used to hang-out at this club where they would play, called The Smell. It was the only All-Ages club in LA at the time and he was only 15, so that’s where he would go. No Age were one of the bands who played there that he liked. They became friends and he would go over to their place to hang out a little bit so I eventually got to meet their drummer and had some conversations with him. Some time later, I got a call from them, asking if I’d like to do this thing with them, and then I got a call from Keith about the same thing, so I said, yeah, sure, I’ll do it. They told us that they wanted to play a few Black Flag songs so I asked which ones they wanted to play and they gave me a list. I went away and started to learn them again, because I hadn’t played them for a long time ! I mean, when I left Black Flag, it had kind of left a bad taste in my mouth. I hadn’t played any of that music, or even listened to it, for a long time, except professionally. While I was still working with the band at SST, I had to listen to their new records when they came out, but I hadn’t gone back and listened to the older records at all. So I really had to learn that stuff properly again if I was going to do that show. I wouldn’t have wanted to do something like that if it was going to suck or just be half-assed, so I brought myself back to it and learned the songs just by going through them all, again and again. We did that show with No Age in the Summer and really enjoyed it, but it wasn't until later in the year that I got a call from Gary Tovar at Goldenvoice, who said that they were putting together a celebration for their 30th Anniversary and asked if I would like to come along and say a few words. I told him, let me make a couple of calls first, because I’m getting an idea here for something that would be a lot better than that. The first call I made was to Keith and I kind of convinced him to do it, then I called Bill, and I asked him… I also called Henry and asked him, because I thought it would be fun to try to make it bigger and be able to do stuff from the different eras. You know, maybe I could play, and then Kira could come on and they could do some stuff from later on, and that would be fun. Anyway, when I first called Henry, he said yes, but when I called him back later on, to say that it was going ahead, he dipped out and said he couldn’t do it. So, whatever, fine. In the end we just played the ‘Nervous Breakdown’ EP with me, Keith, Bill and Stephen. In a lot of ways, it was pretty similar to what we had done with the No Age guys, except that we didn’t have to teach Bill and Stephen how to play. With the No Age guys, I had to learn the songs well enough again to be able to teach someone else. But with Bill and Stephen, they knew that stuff already. They know how to play that shit ! The Descendents were already going to be headlining that show and we didn’t want to overpower their thing, so we asked that it wouldn’t be advertised that we would be playing this thing. But word got out and I guess that may have been something to do with Goldenvoice, but what the Hell, it was fun !’
‘That was the very first step. That was the thing that brought Keith and I together again. We hadn’t really talked much since the Eighties, apart from once or twice on the phone, maybe, and one time I saw him when he was doing a spoken-word thing, but even then I only spoke to him for a minute or two. So we didn’t really spend any time together until those No Age guys asked us to do that thing with them. I already knew those guys because my oldest boy, Milo, was friends with them. He used to hang-out at this club where they would play, called The Smell. It was the only All-Ages club in LA at the time and he was only 15, so that’s where he would go. No Age were one of the bands who played there that he liked. They became friends and he would go over to their place to hang out a little bit so I eventually got to meet their drummer and had some conversations with him. Some time later, I got a call from them, asking if I’d like to do this thing with them, and then I got a call from Keith about the same thing, so I said, yeah, sure, I’ll do it. They told us that they wanted to play a few Black Flag songs so I asked which ones they wanted to play and they gave me a list. I went away and started to learn them again, because I hadn’t played them for a long time ! I mean, when I left Black Flag, it had kind of left a bad taste in my mouth. I hadn’t played any of that music, or even listened to it, for a long time, except professionally. While I was still working with the band at SST, I had to listen to their new records when they came out, but I hadn’t gone back and listened to the older records at all. So I really had to learn that stuff properly again if I was going to do that show. I wouldn’t have wanted to do something like that if it was going to suck or just be half-assed, so I brought myself back to it and learned the songs just by going through them all, again and again. We did that show with No Age in the Summer and really enjoyed it, but it wasn't until later in the year that I got a call from Gary Tovar at Goldenvoice, who said that they were putting together a celebration for their 30th Anniversary and asked if I would like to come along and say a few words. I told him, let me make a couple of calls first, because I’m getting an idea here for something that would be a lot better than that. The first call I made was to Keith and I kind of convinced him to do it, then I called Bill, and I asked him… I also called Henry and asked him, because I thought it would be fun to try to make it bigger and be able to do stuff from the different eras. You know, maybe I could play, and then Kira could come on and they could do some stuff from later on, and that would be fun. Anyway, when I first called Henry, he said yes, but when I called him back later on, to say that it was going ahead, he dipped out and said he couldn’t do it. So, whatever, fine. In the end we just played the ‘Nervous Breakdown’ EP with me, Keith, Bill and Stephen. In a lot of ways, it was pretty similar to what we had done with the No Age guys, except that we didn’t have to teach Bill and Stephen how to play. With the No Age guys, I had to learn the songs well enough again to be able to teach someone else. But with Bill and Stephen, they knew that stuff already. They know how to play that shit ! The Descendents were already going to be headlining that show and we didn’t want to overpower their thing, so we asked that it wouldn’t be advertised that we would be playing this thing. But word got out and I guess that may have been something to do with Goldenvoice, but what the Hell, it was fun !’
I assume that, at that time, the show was only meant to be a one-off event ?
‘Oh yeah, it was only ever intended as a one-off thing. I mean, we all knew each other, but Bill had never been in Black Flag with either me or Keith, as he played in one of the later line-ups. But when we all came together, wham ! It was easy and it was good. But it wasn’t until about a year later when we decided to play some more shows as ‘Flag’. We’d gradually started talking about it, but it took about a year before we actually did it.’
I have wondered, since Black Flag’s reputation had continued to build over the years, had there ever been any offers put forward for the band to reform ?
‘Not to me, but if there ever was any offer like that, they would have taken it to Greg. By then, I would have been working more behind the scenes at SST, especially after Greg bought me out and I wasn’t a partner anymore. I was working more on the marketing and distribution side of things, so I kept away from the band stuff.’
I know there have been various legal problems between yourselves and Greg about you playing as Flag. Did that happen as soon as you started playing live ?
‘He tried to do something about it pretty much right away. He sued us to stop us performing in a law-stat motion, and from there it was just game-on for a big Law Suit. He was objecting to a lot of stuff as there were multiple things going on at the same time. But with us, he was mostly just objecting to us doing it and he was just going to do whatever the Hell he could come up with to try and say it was not okay. He did not want it to happen.’
Who did he actual try to sue, because I’ve read different versions of what happened ?
‘He sued all of us that were playing as Flag, even Stephen. Raymond wasn’t involved with it, but Henry was involved in another thing. It turned out that nobody actually owned the trademark, the bars, so Keith and Henry filed to take possession of the Black Flag trademark. But that was a different agenda… I think that was more an attempt so that, maybe one day, the rest of us could have more control over our legacy and be able to make sure that it was dealt-with in a better and more effective way. I think that was their long-term objective. I have already been to court with Greg numerous times, and mostly I’ve been successful, but those times have just been about getting paid what I was owed and nothing to do with the old records. But the agenda with the trademark was to try and get to a point where, someday, they could gain some control over those records.’
‘Oh yeah, it was only ever intended as a one-off thing. I mean, we all knew each other, but Bill had never been in Black Flag with either me or Keith, as he played in one of the later line-ups. But when we all came together, wham ! It was easy and it was good. But it wasn’t until about a year later when we decided to play some more shows as ‘Flag’. We’d gradually started talking about it, but it took about a year before we actually did it.’
I have wondered, since Black Flag’s reputation had continued to build over the years, had there ever been any offers put forward for the band to reform ?
‘Not to me, but if there ever was any offer like that, they would have taken it to Greg. By then, I would have been working more behind the scenes at SST, especially after Greg bought me out and I wasn’t a partner anymore. I was working more on the marketing and distribution side of things, so I kept away from the band stuff.’
I know there have been various legal problems between yourselves and Greg about you playing as Flag. Did that happen as soon as you started playing live ?
‘He tried to do something about it pretty much right away. He sued us to stop us performing in a law-stat motion, and from there it was just game-on for a big Law Suit. He was objecting to a lot of stuff as there were multiple things going on at the same time. But with us, he was mostly just objecting to us doing it and he was just going to do whatever the Hell he could come up with to try and say it was not okay. He did not want it to happen.’
Who did he actual try to sue, because I’ve read different versions of what happened ?
‘He sued all of us that were playing as Flag, even Stephen. Raymond wasn’t involved with it, but Henry was involved in another thing. It turned out that nobody actually owned the trademark, the bars, so Keith and Henry filed to take possession of the Black Flag trademark. But that was a different agenda… I think that was more an attempt so that, maybe one day, the rest of us could have more control over our legacy and be able to make sure that it was dealt-with in a better and more effective way. I think that was their long-term objective. I have already been to court with Greg numerous times, and mostly I’ve been successful, but those times have just been about getting paid what I was owed and nothing to do with the old records. But the agenda with the trademark was to try and get to a point where, someday, they could gain some control over those records.’
You’ve already said that you went for some thirty years without playing those early Black Flag songs. Coming back to them now, does it give you a different perspective about them ?
‘I don’t know if it gives me a new perspective… in some cases, maybe, but mostly I think I feel the same way. When we were playing those songs, it wasn’t just a phase. It was part of my real soul, so when we play those songs now, we have to honour what we’re doing. You have to bring your best, real self to it, or you shouldn’t do it. When we decided to play together, there was no money on the table, we wanted to do it because we thought it would be fun. But if we were going to do it at all, we were going to honour it. I brought my real self to it and I enjoyed it, both the music and the people, and so it all grew from that. We’re still doing it now, but if it stops bringing these things to us, we will stop. That stuff is all part of my soul… I mean, I have a family now, but some of the ideas in those songs are relevant to that. The ideas in the songs have always meant a lot to me. Take ‘Spray Paint’… ‘my life is their disease.’ Well, I’ve spread that disease. I have four children and they’re part of me. That doesn’t mean I can make them be a certain way, but I think they have grown-up that way themselves. It’s like, with my band, CD6, we recorded a version of ‘My War’ and my wife, Lora, sang the vocals and really nailed it. I liked it because it brought the song into my family and the way we did it made it feminist and brought ideas to it that perhaps people hadn’t thought about before then. It’s a song that’s always been relevant to different people, but a good song should have a lot of different ways to remain relevant.’
Well, to finish the interview I have to ask, do you think there’s any possibility of this band writing and recording any new music together ? There certainly seems to be a real chemistry between you onstage, so it would seem like the next natural step ?
‘Well, that would be exciting, but because of the legal stuff we’re actually not allowed to release anything new under this band name. So if we did do something rogether, it would have to be under a different name. Or we could just write some new songs and only play them live… someone else could then make their own records, haha ! But I think we really play great together so there are definitely possibilities for us. Bill really brings a lot to it, Stephen brings a lot and both Keith and Dez bring their own ways of doing things. There’s a real synergy between us and when you throw it all together, it’s real. We’ve found a sound that’s very similar to the original Black Flag sound, but now it’s the Flag sound. It’s something that I’d like to try to take forward and I think it would actually be pretty easy to do that because we’ve put so much time into learning how to play together. I think it would be really exciting and it could be really good. The problem is that everybody is pretty busy with their own things and we all live in a million different places… well, four different places, anyway, so proximity is not favouring us. We would have to make the decision to do it, just because of the nature of the geographic separation. But, you never know, it might happen. I have talked to different people in the band and everyone seems to like the idea, so we may do that. There’s no plan as yet, but it could be fun, so you never know…’
‘I don’t know if it gives me a new perspective… in some cases, maybe, but mostly I think I feel the same way. When we were playing those songs, it wasn’t just a phase. It was part of my real soul, so when we play those songs now, we have to honour what we’re doing. You have to bring your best, real self to it, or you shouldn’t do it. When we decided to play together, there was no money on the table, we wanted to do it because we thought it would be fun. But if we were going to do it at all, we were going to honour it. I brought my real self to it and I enjoyed it, both the music and the people, and so it all grew from that. We’re still doing it now, but if it stops bringing these things to us, we will stop. That stuff is all part of my soul… I mean, I have a family now, but some of the ideas in those songs are relevant to that. The ideas in the songs have always meant a lot to me. Take ‘Spray Paint’… ‘my life is their disease.’ Well, I’ve spread that disease. I have four children and they’re part of me. That doesn’t mean I can make them be a certain way, but I think they have grown-up that way themselves. It’s like, with my band, CD6, we recorded a version of ‘My War’ and my wife, Lora, sang the vocals and really nailed it. I liked it because it brought the song into my family and the way we did it made it feminist and brought ideas to it that perhaps people hadn’t thought about before then. It’s a song that’s always been relevant to different people, but a good song should have a lot of different ways to remain relevant.’
Well, to finish the interview I have to ask, do you think there’s any possibility of this band writing and recording any new music together ? There certainly seems to be a real chemistry between you onstage, so it would seem like the next natural step ?
‘Well, that would be exciting, but because of the legal stuff we’re actually not allowed to release anything new under this band name. So if we did do something rogether, it would have to be under a different name. Or we could just write some new songs and only play them live… someone else could then make their own records, haha ! But I think we really play great together so there are definitely possibilities for us. Bill really brings a lot to it, Stephen brings a lot and both Keith and Dez bring their own ways of doing things. There’s a real synergy between us and when you throw it all together, it’s real. We’ve found a sound that’s very similar to the original Black Flag sound, but now it’s the Flag sound. It’s something that I’d like to try to take forward and I think it would actually be pretty easy to do that because we’ve put so much time into learning how to play together. I think it would be really exciting and it could be really good. The problem is that everybody is pretty busy with their own things and we all live in a million different places… well, four different places, anyway, so proximity is not favouring us. We would have to make the decision to do it, just because of the nature of the geographic separation. But, you never know, it might happen. I have talked to different people in the band and everyone seems to like the idea, so we may do that. There’s no plan as yet, but it could be fun, so you never know…’
As Chuck needed to get ready for the gig, we ended the interview on that point and went our separate ways. Again, I wanted to get inside the venue early to see the opening band, this time Channel 3. But this evening, there’s a slight problem - my name isn’t on the guestlist ! Cue sudden panic as I try to figure what to do when, with perfect timing, Bill walks-by. ‘Yeah, you’re on the list, I wrote it out about an hour ago…’ he tells me, before realising, ‘I didn’t send it to the box office !’ He rushes back to the tour bus to get it sorted, and five minutes later I’m inside the gig. Phew !
The place is already pretty crowded and Channel 3 are really going down well. I know I’ve said this before, but I really can’t understand why they’re not a lot more popular. They have great songs, they play them with plenty of style and energy and it seems that everyone who sees them comes out impressed. In a lot of ways, they’re similar to Social Distortion, but for my money, they do it so much better. Why they haven’t got a bigger profile is just beyond me. All that being said, tonight they just blow the place away. Songs like ‘Manzanar’ and ‘I’ve Got A gun’ are bonafide classics, while their more recent material effortlessly lives up to those standards. Mike Magrann is a great frontman and the whole band are a tight, effective unit, so this is another great opening for a gig and whilst I’d be more than happy to see Channel 3 headlining to larger audiences of their own, to have them and Flag on the same show is a real bonus.
Which is more than I can say for the next band, A Wilhelm Scream. Whilst I wouldn’t entirely agree with the subtle wit of the person who yelled out ‘Emo Shit !’ between their songs, they really didn’t have much to keep my attention. I certainly couldn’t see why they were playing above a great band like Channel 3, who had warmed-up the audience only for the mood to be dampened by this lot. Another one of life’s little mysteries…
The place is already pretty crowded and Channel 3 are really going down well. I know I’ve said this before, but I really can’t understand why they’re not a lot more popular. They have great songs, they play them with plenty of style and energy and it seems that everyone who sees them comes out impressed. In a lot of ways, they’re similar to Social Distortion, but for my money, they do it so much better. Why they haven’t got a bigger profile is just beyond me. All that being said, tonight they just blow the place away. Songs like ‘Manzanar’ and ‘I’ve Got A gun’ are bonafide classics, while their more recent material effortlessly lives up to those standards. Mike Magrann is a great frontman and the whole band are a tight, effective unit, so this is another great opening for a gig and whilst I’d be more than happy to see Channel 3 headlining to larger audiences of their own, to have them and Flag on the same show is a real bonus.
Which is more than I can say for the next band, A Wilhelm Scream. Whilst I wouldn’t entirely agree with the subtle wit of the person who yelled out ‘Emo Shit !’ between their songs, they really didn’t have much to keep my attention. I certainly couldn’t see why they were playing above a great band like Channel 3, who had warmed-up the audience only for the mood to be dampened by this lot. Another one of life’s little mysteries…
I decide to stand on the opposite side of the stage to watch Flag tonight, this time pretty-much right in front of Chuck’s speakers. The band play the same set but, if anything, it sounds even better this time. The audience is going berserk, although most stage-divers are at least being respectful of the limited space onstage. Keith does have to question why someone would buy a beer only to pour it over the monitors and also berates one idiot for spitting, but mostly it’s a good-humoured kind of chaos. And one point between songs, he sneers, ‘Fuck Greg Ginn’, which inspires an audience chant, and then before ‘Nervous Breakdown’ he tells the audience that he suspects he’ll be singing this song for the rest of his life… Well, if you’re going to be singing a particular song, this certainly isn’t a bad choice ! The encore ends with another superb, droning version of ‘Damaged 1’ that is dragged out to the limits of endurance, pulverising but essential. There was no better way to end this gig.
Afterwards, I see so many people heading out with happy faces. These two shows had really been something special and whilst it certainly wasn’t a Black Flag reunion it’s almost certainly much more than you could expect from the (current) Black Flag. This band play the songs properly, with total commitment, and while I have a huge respect for Greg Ginn as a guitar player and song writer, I just can’t imagine that he will ever be able to better this on his own, whether he continues to call it Black Flag or not. Flag may not be Black Flag, but they are the real thing.
Afterwards, I see so many people heading out with happy faces. These two shows had really been something special and whilst it certainly wasn’t a Black Flag reunion it’s almost certainly much more than you could expect from the (current) Black Flag. This band play the songs properly, with total commitment, and while I have a huge respect for Greg Ginn as a guitar player and song writer, I just can’t imagine that he will ever be able to better this on his own, whether he continues to call it Black Flag or not. Flag may not be Black Flag, but they are the real thing.
