Do Jaz Coleman and Killing Joke really need an introduction ? The bands’ career has now lasted more than forty years, during which time they’ve produced numerous great records and have been a consistently awesome live band. They’ve earned a volatile reputation over the years but have also maintained a large and very loyal following (the Gatherers) which still continues to grow. The sad and untimely death of bass player Paul Raven in 2007 unexpectedly led to the reunion of the original four members (Jaz, Geordie, Youth and Paul Ferguson) and they have since released three more albums as well as continuing to tour around the world. Their influence can be heard in the music of many highly successful bands, from Ministry and Nine Inch Nails through to Nirvana and Marilyn Manson, although none have ever come close to capturing the true essence of Killing Joke.
Meanwhile, Jaz has also pursued a separate career as a classical composer and has worked with some of the worlds’ most renowned orchestras, including the London Philharmonic Orchestra, the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra and the Prague Symphony Orchestra. Whilst he has released albums of his classical work, to a great extent this side of his musical output has remained quite separate to his work with Killing Joke. However, in 2016 it was announced that he would be recording a classical album inspired by the music of Killing Joke which, for the first time, would be bringing the two elements together. Unfortunately, due to the collapse of Pledge Music, the project was unavoidably delayed but finally, at the end of 2019, the album was released. Recorded with the St Petersburg Symphony Orchestra and entitled ‘Magna Invocatio’ (subtitled ‘A Gnostic Mass for Choir and Orchestra inspired by the sublime music of Killing Joke’) it’s probably not what many were expecting but has, nonetheless, received an enthusiastic welcome from Killing Joke fans. As the subtitle suggests, it’s not simply an album of orchestral versions of Killing Joke songs, but rather a collection of pieces that have been inspired by the ideas and intent of certain tracks just as much as the music itself. Further to this, the songs chosen as the basis for this project have been picked for their appropriateness rather than just being the best-known or most popular Killing Joke songs. As such, this record is a very successful statement, an extension of the original Killing Joke songs performed in a way that creates a powerful, unique and emotive album in its’ own right.
Meanwhile, Jaz has also pursued a separate career as a classical composer and has worked with some of the worlds’ most renowned orchestras, including the London Philharmonic Orchestra, the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra and the Prague Symphony Orchestra. Whilst he has released albums of his classical work, to a great extent this side of his musical output has remained quite separate to his work with Killing Joke. However, in 2016 it was announced that he would be recording a classical album inspired by the music of Killing Joke which, for the first time, would be bringing the two elements together. Unfortunately, due to the collapse of Pledge Music, the project was unavoidably delayed but finally, at the end of 2019, the album was released. Recorded with the St Petersburg Symphony Orchestra and entitled ‘Magna Invocatio’ (subtitled ‘A Gnostic Mass for Choir and Orchestra inspired by the sublime music of Killing Joke’) it’s probably not what many were expecting but has, nonetheless, received an enthusiastic welcome from Killing Joke fans. As the subtitle suggests, it’s not simply an album of orchestral versions of Killing Joke songs, but rather a collection of pieces that have been inspired by the ideas and intent of certain tracks just as much as the music itself. Further to this, the songs chosen as the basis for this project have been picked for their appropriateness rather than just being the best-known or most popular Killing Joke songs. As such, this record is a very successful statement, an extension of the original Killing Joke songs performed in a way that creates a powerful, unique and emotive album in its’ own right.
Having just completed a Killing Joke tour in North America, Jaz had returned to London to launch the new album and I was fortunate to be offered an interview. In theory, the interview was supposed to be about ‘Magna Invocatio’ but of course, it was just as much about Killing Joke. I met-up with Jaz at the Columbia Hotel in Bayswater and, with a limited amount of time available, we got straight into the conversation.
Killing Joke have recently completed a tour in America, supporting the band Tool. I know they’re popular but it still seemed strange that Killing Joke would be opening for a band like that…
‘Yeah, we were the fluffers, hahaha ! But the way I see it, it went great. We got a standing ovation every night and we promoted Killing Joke’s music to a different audience. Tool are sort of like our musical-children and we’ve been watching their career from the beginning. We’re friends with them, so it was an interesting tour, although I guess the differences between our aspirations were highlighted. I don’t think we’d want to do another stadium tour again… We didn’t sign-up for that, it’s not really our sort of thing. If we ever got that popular, I think I’d rather just do extra nights in a theatre rather than play in a stadium. I hate the American-style of culture around those tours, with things like ‘meet and greet’ packages and stuff like that. We’ve always tried to have an open-soundcheck policy, so that gatherers can just come down and meet us, if they want to. We try to do that wherever it’s possible. Also, I don’t like it when a band gets that big and they end up having to get body guards and things like that. We can look after ourselves in Killing Joke… if someone wanted to shoot us, they’d have to make sure we were all dead, because if there’s anything left, we’re going to get them ! And we don’t need someone there to throw people out of our dressing room, because we enjoy doing it ourselves. It’s a bit like the way that Rugby Union fans view American Football… Rugby players don’t need crash helmets. I think all of that is also down to the differences in our societies. I’m glad that I was brought-up in a place where not even the police carry guns… When I look at things like that, I don’t find America to be very civilised. I love the people there, but I don’t like the system where they’re ruled by corporations. I mean, 80% of the American population is basically two pay-checks away from homelessness and there are more people in prisons than there are in colleges… It’s a failed state with an 800 year debt. When the petrodollar goes, the East and the rest of the world will catch up and America will disintegrate, just like the Soviet Union. It’s already happening. While we were on tour, we saw all of these tent cities… we saw them all around America. People don’t want to talk about that, but at the same time, the media is happy to show people being killed by drone warfare and it’s that kind of desensitisation that’s happening. We have an irresponsible elite who use terms like ‘useless eaters’ and ‘excess population’ to describe homeless people. They look at the world as being over-populated and want to de-populate it by Malthusian means. When leaders start talking like that, they’re only one step away from genocide.
Killing Joke have recently completed a tour in America, supporting the band Tool. I know they’re popular but it still seemed strange that Killing Joke would be opening for a band like that…
‘Yeah, we were the fluffers, hahaha ! But the way I see it, it went great. We got a standing ovation every night and we promoted Killing Joke’s music to a different audience. Tool are sort of like our musical-children and we’ve been watching their career from the beginning. We’re friends with them, so it was an interesting tour, although I guess the differences between our aspirations were highlighted. I don’t think we’d want to do another stadium tour again… We didn’t sign-up for that, it’s not really our sort of thing. If we ever got that popular, I think I’d rather just do extra nights in a theatre rather than play in a stadium. I hate the American-style of culture around those tours, with things like ‘meet and greet’ packages and stuff like that. We’ve always tried to have an open-soundcheck policy, so that gatherers can just come down and meet us, if they want to. We try to do that wherever it’s possible. Also, I don’t like it when a band gets that big and they end up having to get body guards and things like that. We can look after ourselves in Killing Joke… if someone wanted to shoot us, they’d have to make sure we were all dead, because if there’s anything left, we’re going to get them ! And we don’t need someone there to throw people out of our dressing room, because we enjoy doing it ourselves. It’s a bit like the way that Rugby Union fans view American Football… Rugby players don’t need crash helmets. I think all of that is also down to the differences in our societies. I’m glad that I was brought-up in a place where not even the police carry guns… When I look at things like that, I don’t find America to be very civilised. I love the people there, but I don’t like the system where they’re ruled by corporations. I mean, 80% of the American population is basically two pay-checks away from homelessness and there are more people in prisons than there are in colleges… It’s a failed state with an 800 year debt. When the petrodollar goes, the East and the rest of the world will catch up and America will disintegrate, just like the Soviet Union. It’s already happening. While we were on tour, we saw all of these tent cities… we saw them all around America. People don’t want to talk about that, but at the same time, the media is happy to show people being killed by drone warfare and it’s that kind of desensitisation that’s happening. We have an irresponsible elite who use terms like ‘useless eaters’ and ‘excess population’ to describe homeless people. They look at the world as being over-populated and want to de-populate it by Malthusian means. When leaders start talking like that, they’re only one step away from genocide.
What’s happening is that human life is losing its’ value in the eyes of other human beings. When it comes to ethics, it seems there are no checks or balances. Who gets to decide all of this? When you apply this to the ideas of transhumanism, where are the checks and balances? You might get some kind of creepy Protestant guy that decides that the working class should neither have memory or sexual pleasure…or any pleasure at all… so they’d just be re-designed accordingly. The imperative for a Philosophical elect, an ethical and spiritual elect, is more than ever. But that cannot come from the patristic religions of Judaism, Christianity or Islam because, essentially, they’re apocalyptic cults. They worship an inorganic predator... if Yahweh, the God of the Old Testament, was a real person and was alive today, they’d be trying him in the International Criminal Courts for genocide ! These are the facts and we need to move on, as it were, in a spiritual sense. Part of Killing Joke’s role is to envisage what comes next. What we need if we are to increase the bio-organisms to support all life, psychologically-speaking, is a female deity. We don’t want to move into atheism, but we need to have a spiritual awakening of mankind to create a planetary consciousness. This is actually one of the aims of ‘Magna Invocatio’. That’s been my aim with this album and, in a way, it’s the opposite of Killing Joke, which has always been more of a social function… a violent art-form that has provided me with an effective surrogate for the war-impulse that’s inside myself, I suppose. Killing Joke has not only been my university, because I left school with four criminal offences and no exams, but it’s also guided me in so many other respects. It’s taught me to be a communist… by which I don’t mean a Marxist, I mean a collectivist. Part of Killing Jokes’ success and longevity has been down to the fact that we split everything equally. That might be a small thing, but it’s an important thing. I’ve always seen Killing Joke as a microcosm of a wider world. With the individual characters within the band, it’s often hard to find consensus, but we do. It takes three people in a four-piece band to carry a vote, so when we reach that outcome, we can all respect it.’
Killing Joke have always had a volatile reputation, but for a band to produce such consistently
powerful and emotional music, it has to be made-up of individuals who are passionate about what
they do. But that’s also bound to create friction at times…
‘We run on conflict and it’s the way that we jar against each other which makes the music what it is. It works that way intellectually as well, as we’re all well-read individuals. I used to think all bands were like this, but with most bands I’ve met, generally-speaking I’ve found that I don’t have much that I can talk to them about… But in Killing Joke, conversations can move from geo-politics to architecture, or from poetry to mysticism and sacred geometry… everyone has strong opinions on everything, which is why I feel very privileged to be a part of Killing Joke. It opens doors everywhere… it’s more powerful than a knighthood… and I actually have one of those as well, although not from this country…’
You were talking about people becoming de-sensitised to the problems in the world around them… There’s a great quote from William Burroughs, ‘Western man is externalising himself in the form of gadgets’. That may have been written 50 years ago, but you only have to look at all the people obsessed by their cellphones as they walk down the street to see how true it’s become…
‘Aldous Huxley talked about the same thing… everybody would have devices and they’d be happy in their devices. Of course now, with nano-technology, the devices could be self-replicating within our bodies, without our knowledge, even as we speak. The State that we’re in has been manufactured to be this way by ‘think-tanks’. When we think about the counter-culture that’s come out since the Sixties, it’s all been manufactured by the Tavistock Institute. Memes like ‘pop music’, ‘cool’, or ‘teenager’, are all Tavistock jargon. So many of these things were deliberately instigated by people like them. Killing Joke takes its’ lineage of counter culture from the conscientious objectors of the First World War, so we have a different lineage to the more usual people like Leary or Adorno and the rest of them. As it turned out, some of those people, by their own admissions, were actually CIA funded, anyway.’
powerful and emotional music, it has to be made-up of individuals who are passionate about what
they do. But that’s also bound to create friction at times…
‘We run on conflict and it’s the way that we jar against each other which makes the music what it is. It works that way intellectually as well, as we’re all well-read individuals. I used to think all bands were like this, but with most bands I’ve met, generally-speaking I’ve found that I don’t have much that I can talk to them about… But in Killing Joke, conversations can move from geo-politics to architecture, or from poetry to mysticism and sacred geometry… everyone has strong opinions on everything, which is why I feel very privileged to be a part of Killing Joke. It opens doors everywhere… it’s more powerful than a knighthood… and I actually have one of those as well, although not from this country…’
You were talking about people becoming de-sensitised to the problems in the world around them… There’s a great quote from William Burroughs, ‘Western man is externalising himself in the form of gadgets’. That may have been written 50 years ago, but you only have to look at all the people obsessed by their cellphones as they walk down the street to see how true it’s become…
‘Aldous Huxley talked about the same thing… everybody would have devices and they’d be happy in their devices. Of course now, with nano-technology, the devices could be self-replicating within our bodies, without our knowledge, even as we speak. The State that we’re in has been manufactured to be this way by ‘think-tanks’. When we think about the counter-culture that’s come out since the Sixties, it’s all been manufactured by the Tavistock Institute. Memes like ‘pop music’, ‘cool’, or ‘teenager’, are all Tavistock jargon. So many of these things were deliberately instigated by people like them. Killing Joke takes its’ lineage of counter culture from the conscientious objectors of the First World War, so we have a different lineage to the more usual people like Leary or Adorno and the rest of them. As it turned out, some of those people, by their own admissions, were actually CIA funded, anyway.’
It’s now more than forty years since Killing Joke first formed and yet the band is currently more popular than ever and still releasing some of your best and most successful records. Does it surprise you that things have worked out this way ?
‘I think that Killing Joke has morphed into something very powerful and I can’t remember a time when things have been so consistently good for us. But frankly, I think that all we’re going to do is write our new album next year. We’ve done three years worth of tours in one year, so I don’t think I’ll be in the right frame of mind to go on tour again for a while. We’ve been working really hard… My colleagues amaze me because they have so much stamina and when we’re on tour, they’re often burning the candle at both ends. But we’re all resting up right now.’
Do you feel that Killing Joke has responsibilities above and beyond the music ?
‘I think we all have responsibilities to the continuity of the human race and the most important thing right now is to increase food supplies, because I think we’re heading towards a time of economic meltdown. We could be facing a time when the cash machines won’t work anymore because they’ve eaten everything in your bank account. Your savings will no longer exist. I think this is coming and what it will mean is that everyone will only have enough food for two or three days… I want people to think about where they’re going to get their food from? For your sake and for your loved ones, I want people to think about this, in case it happens. I want people to think about this as a community, not as individuals. Every public space and every back garden could be used to produce food. We’re at a stage where one super volcano could erupt, or there could be a nuclear exchange between India and Pakistan, and it could send the world into fifteen years of darkness and subsequent crop failure. So we have to think of innovative ways to feed everybody and we have to move away from capitalism, towards sustainability and collectivism. Human well-being must be our main value so we need a complete overhaul of human values. It’s become a necessity and it will be nothing short of a spiritual revolution… The other sort of revolution never seems to work, you know, like the French type. Violent revolution always seems to morph into more authoritarianism, so the revolution we need should be within peoples’ hearts. There’s an idea that I’d like people to reflect on, which is simultaneous disengagement. That means, the top 1500 most powerful corporations should be disengaged, along with the Federal Reserve, the Bank of International Settlements and the military-industrial complex, to be replaced by a different system all in one sweeping motion. Simultaneous disengagement. I dream of a government that resembles Jury service – why not ? It would ensure there were no vested interests. At the moment we have a system that’s a magnet for sociopaths and cases like Tony Blair. We can never forgive him – there should be a Peoples’ Court to put him on trial for all of his crimes.’
I’ve always thought that line in ‘Pssyche’, “Look at the Controller, a Nazi with a Social Degree”, works as such a good description of Tony Blair…
‘Hahaha ! That’s right, that’s so right !’
‘I think that Killing Joke has morphed into something very powerful and I can’t remember a time when things have been so consistently good for us. But frankly, I think that all we’re going to do is write our new album next year. We’ve done three years worth of tours in one year, so I don’t think I’ll be in the right frame of mind to go on tour again for a while. We’ve been working really hard… My colleagues amaze me because they have so much stamina and when we’re on tour, they’re often burning the candle at both ends. But we’re all resting up right now.’
Do you feel that Killing Joke has responsibilities above and beyond the music ?
‘I think we all have responsibilities to the continuity of the human race and the most important thing right now is to increase food supplies, because I think we’re heading towards a time of economic meltdown. We could be facing a time when the cash machines won’t work anymore because they’ve eaten everything in your bank account. Your savings will no longer exist. I think this is coming and what it will mean is that everyone will only have enough food for two or three days… I want people to think about where they’re going to get their food from? For your sake and for your loved ones, I want people to think about this, in case it happens. I want people to think about this as a community, not as individuals. Every public space and every back garden could be used to produce food. We’re at a stage where one super volcano could erupt, or there could be a nuclear exchange between India and Pakistan, and it could send the world into fifteen years of darkness and subsequent crop failure. So we have to think of innovative ways to feed everybody and we have to move away from capitalism, towards sustainability and collectivism. Human well-being must be our main value so we need a complete overhaul of human values. It’s become a necessity and it will be nothing short of a spiritual revolution… The other sort of revolution never seems to work, you know, like the French type. Violent revolution always seems to morph into more authoritarianism, so the revolution we need should be within peoples’ hearts. There’s an idea that I’d like people to reflect on, which is simultaneous disengagement. That means, the top 1500 most powerful corporations should be disengaged, along with the Federal Reserve, the Bank of International Settlements and the military-industrial complex, to be replaced by a different system all in one sweeping motion. Simultaneous disengagement. I dream of a government that resembles Jury service – why not ? It would ensure there were no vested interests. At the moment we have a system that’s a magnet for sociopaths and cases like Tony Blair. We can never forgive him – there should be a Peoples’ Court to put him on trial for all of his crimes.’
I’ve always thought that line in ‘Pssyche’, “Look at the Controller, a Nazi with a Social Degree”, works as such a good description of Tony Blair…
‘Hahaha ! That’s right, that’s so right !’
You were talking about the way that Killing Joke work as a collective… I get the impression that the creative input for things such as lyrics don’t always come from one person and that your roles within the band are a lot more flexible. But I think that most people tend to assume that, within any band, each person will stick to their own particular role…
‘No, it doesn’t work like that, especially not with the four original members. Bearing in mind that Big Paul took a twenty-year break away from the band, but he was, and now is again, the other person writing lyrics. However, I think we write in such a similar style that you can’t really tell who’s written what… It’s kind of interesting because we’ve grown together in this way and so, when I have a new theme or idea, I always tell Paul so he’ll be able to write about it from his perspective. He always comes up with things that I like, so I’ll synthesise them into our work. In a band, as a collective, to get the best results you have to sacrifice aspects of your individuality. Hopefully willingly! In today’s Me-generation, people can’t understand that there is strength in unity. We’ve always had a very simple philosophy of, the best idea wins. We just try to get on a hypnotic groove until it locks in and becomes something nasty. When it locks-in, we know it’s right. It’s an intangible thing and we never conceive things in terms of a cerebral concept or that we’re going to do this or that. There’s no pre-considerations with Killing Joke on any level. Even with what we want to do and how we plan our careers… it’s total chaos and we’re a nightmare band ! We are utterly unmanageable, but we do have our own way of working.’
I can certainly see that’s how some songs have come together like that. ‘Exorcism’ would be a prime example…
‘The vocals for that were recorded in the Kings Chamber of the Great Pyramid of Giza, all in one take. That was an amazing experience… and it was straight after that when our recording engineer fell asleep and he had a vision of thousands of alien eyes. That’s when we realised that this place was consciousness technology. It’s a way of communication with other places, perhaps even with distant stars. This is just part of what an incredible journey it’s been for us. My journey began with criminal offences when I was a teenager, leaving school unqualified and living in squats, but it’s moved on to being a Cultural Ambassador and working with the great Orchestras of the world. All of these wonderful things have happened and it’s been a long journey, but the best is what still lies ahead. I think we’re ready for our masterpiece and I believe that our defining record will be the next one.’
‘No, it doesn’t work like that, especially not with the four original members. Bearing in mind that Big Paul took a twenty-year break away from the band, but he was, and now is again, the other person writing lyrics. However, I think we write in such a similar style that you can’t really tell who’s written what… It’s kind of interesting because we’ve grown together in this way and so, when I have a new theme or idea, I always tell Paul so he’ll be able to write about it from his perspective. He always comes up with things that I like, so I’ll synthesise them into our work. In a band, as a collective, to get the best results you have to sacrifice aspects of your individuality. Hopefully willingly! In today’s Me-generation, people can’t understand that there is strength in unity. We’ve always had a very simple philosophy of, the best idea wins. We just try to get on a hypnotic groove until it locks in and becomes something nasty. When it locks-in, we know it’s right. It’s an intangible thing and we never conceive things in terms of a cerebral concept or that we’re going to do this or that. There’s no pre-considerations with Killing Joke on any level. Even with what we want to do and how we plan our careers… it’s total chaos and we’re a nightmare band ! We are utterly unmanageable, but we do have our own way of working.’
I can certainly see that’s how some songs have come together like that. ‘Exorcism’ would be a prime example…
‘The vocals for that were recorded in the Kings Chamber of the Great Pyramid of Giza, all in one take. That was an amazing experience… and it was straight after that when our recording engineer fell asleep and he had a vision of thousands of alien eyes. That’s when we realised that this place was consciousness technology. It’s a way of communication with other places, perhaps even with distant stars. This is just part of what an incredible journey it’s been for us. My journey began with criminal offences when I was a teenager, leaving school unqualified and living in squats, but it’s moved on to being a Cultural Ambassador and working with the great Orchestras of the world. All of these wonderful things have happened and it’s been a long journey, but the best is what still lies ahead. I think we’re ready for our masterpiece and I believe that our defining record will be the next one.’
Finally, I wanted to ask about the legacy of Paul Raven. Obviously, his death was a great loss for the band, but it also led to the reunion of the original four members…
‘That was his gift to us… Big Paul actually said that at a memorial which we held last year, that Raven’s gift to him was to reunite us after we had been divided for two decades. We managed to resolve our differences, which gives me hope because, in a way, I’ve always thought of Killing Joke as a microcosm of a possible wider society. I feel that if we can resolve our differences, then it gives me hope for the rest of the world. It’s good because I think people don’t just want to go to a gig and see any old band, they want to have life-changing experiences and that’s what we try to achieve. And to that extent, I think that Raven is still with us… When I sent the first take of ‘The Raven King’ to my manager, she was listening on her ‘phone as she was standing at a bus shelter. And as she stood there listening to it, a fucking magpie shit all over her phone ! We instantly knew it was him. Magpies are part of the Corvidae gang, the same as Ravens… and he always liked stealing shiny things, so I know it had to be him !’
Unfortunately, we ran out of time at this point but I think this was an appropriate story to end on. Killing Joke are certainly a band that divides opinions but it’s tales like this that continue to ensure that they will never be less than unique. They are a band intent on making ideas and possibilities available to anyone who will take the time to listen, although at the same time they are content to see you make up your own mind. Musically, they remain one of the most powerful bands you are ever likely to see or hear and their live performances are events that involve the audience like no other band. I’m sure that most of you already know this, but if you don’t, well, you haven’t really got any good excuse. With all of the terrible things going on in the world, we need voices like Killing Joke to at least try to keep us alert. Ignore at your peril.
‘That was his gift to us… Big Paul actually said that at a memorial which we held last year, that Raven’s gift to him was to reunite us after we had been divided for two decades. We managed to resolve our differences, which gives me hope because, in a way, I’ve always thought of Killing Joke as a microcosm of a possible wider society. I feel that if we can resolve our differences, then it gives me hope for the rest of the world. It’s good because I think people don’t just want to go to a gig and see any old band, they want to have life-changing experiences and that’s what we try to achieve. And to that extent, I think that Raven is still with us… When I sent the first take of ‘The Raven King’ to my manager, she was listening on her ‘phone as she was standing at a bus shelter. And as she stood there listening to it, a fucking magpie shit all over her phone ! We instantly knew it was him. Magpies are part of the Corvidae gang, the same as Ravens… and he always liked stealing shiny things, so I know it had to be him !’
Unfortunately, we ran out of time at this point but I think this was an appropriate story to end on. Killing Joke are certainly a band that divides opinions but it’s tales like this that continue to ensure that they will never be less than unique. They are a band intent on making ideas and possibilities available to anyone who will take the time to listen, although at the same time they are content to see you make up your own mind. Musically, they remain one of the most powerful bands you are ever likely to see or hear and their live performances are events that involve the audience like no other band. I’m sure that most of you already know this, but if you don’t, well, you haven’t really got any good excuse. With all of the terrible things going on in the world, we need voices like Killing Joke to at least try to keep us alert. Ignore at your peril.
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