Dave Barbarossa, sometimes known as Dave Barbe, joined the original Adam and the Ants in 1977 and, as their drummer, played an integral part in the development of their sound. He played on the early singles (‘Young Parisians’, ‘Zerox’ and ‘Cartrouble’) as well as their classic debut album, ‘Dirk Wears White Sox’. However, after Adam had hired Malcom McLaren as the bands’ manager, the band were persuaded to leave their singer to form a new band, Bow Wow Wow, who would be fronted by the 14 year old Annabella Lwin. At the same time that the new Adam and the Ants were storming the charts, Bow Wow Wow also enjoyed their own success with several hit singles and a Top 30 album. However, after almost continual touring around the world resulted in band members becoming sick and suffering from exhaustion, Bow Wow Wow broke-up shortly after the release of their second album. Dave was briefly involved with Chiefs of Relief, before taking a break from music to concentrate on his family. When he did return to music, it was as a session-musician, playing for notable bands such as Beats International, Republica and Roland Gift. However, his past caught up with him on several occasions; he played as part of Adam Ants’ touring band in 1995, rejoined Annabella and Leigh Gorman to play a Bow Wow Wow set in tribute to their former guitarist Matthew Ashman in 2010, and also played alongside Leigh as part of Adam Ants’ ‘Dirk Wears White Sox’ tour in 2014. Never one to waste his spare time, he also wrote his first novel, ‘Mud Sharks’, which was published in 2012 and most recently has been playing gigs around London with a new band, Telekinetic Dog. As you can imagine, all of this left me with plenty to talk about, so I made arrangements with Dave and we met-up for an interview in Ladbroke Grove on a particularly warm Friday afternoon…
Since Dave has always had a very eclectic drum style, I began by asking if he had listened to a lot of different types of music as he was growing up?
‘I grew up in Hackney, so I was listening to a lot of reggae and soul alongside Glam rock, things like Bowie and T Rex. I also enjoyed a lot of Heavy Rock like Led Zeppelin and my Dad loved Latin American music so I’d also get to hear that, as well as traditional African music. And I remember that I really loved ‘West Side Story’, so, yeah, I was hearing a lot of different styles.’
Did you play in any other bands prior to joining the Ants?
‘I was in a band called ‘Desolation Angels’ with John Beckett, who would later be known as Johnny Bivouac, but we would just get together and jam in the school hall and never got anywhere with it. This is quite a long time ago so I can’t remember much about it, but I think we once supported The Ants at an Art College in West London and that was how I made my connection with them. But I can’t remember exactly what happened, although I’m sure the details are laying around somewhere...’
How did you actually end-up joining The Ants?
‘I had a really good friend called Mark Ryan, who was playing with Adam and known as ‘The Kid’. He was a very pioneering guy and had known all about Punk Rock before any of us had even heard of it. Anyway, he got in touch one day and told me that their drummer had been in an accident, so could I stand-in for them as they had a gig booked up in Chelmsford. So I said, ‘Yeah, why not?’ and then a couple of hours later, Adam and Jordan turned-up on my doorstep, looking like Martians! No-one had ever seen people looking like that, at least not in Wood Green. So, anyway, we played the gig and then Adam said that I’d played well and did I want the job? So that was the beginning of my… misadventures!’
Had you been impressed by the band when you first saw them?
‘Well, it was just a kind of chaotic, punch-up noise to begin with. I’d count-off ‘one-two-three-four’ and we’d all play our hearts out. There’d be fighting and spitting and Adam would be rolling around on dog-ends… It wasn’t so much about the music, as such, it was more about the event and I loved that. It was very exciting and totally different to anything that I’d ever experienced or known.’
At that time, the whole Punk Rock scene was still pretty new. What did you think of the new styles and sounds?
‘I don’t think I had any preconceptions about it, so when I heard ‘Anarchy in the UK’, I really liked it and that was all that mattered. I also loved the fact that they were shaking things up.’
‘I grew up in Hackney, so I was listening to a lot of reggae and soul alongside Glam rock, things like Bowie and T Rex. I also enjoyed a lot of Heavy Rock like Led Zeppelin and my Dad loved Latin American music so I’d also get to hear that, as well as traditional African music. And I remember that I really loved ‘West Side Story’, so, yeah, I was hearing a lot of different styles.’
Did you play in any other bands prior to joining the Ants?
‘I was in a band called ‘Desolation Angels’ with John Beckett, who would later be known as Johnny Bivouac, but we would just get together and jam in the school hall and never got anywhere with it. This is quite a long time ago so I can’t remember much about it, but I think we once supported The Ants at an Art College in West London and that was how I made my connection with them. But I can’t remember exactly what happened, although I’m sure the details are laying around somewhere...’
How did you actually end-up joining The Ants?
‘I had a really good friend called Mark Ryan, who was playing with Adam and known as ‘The Kid’. He was a very pioneering guy and had known all about Punk Rock before any of us had even heard of it. Anyway, he got in touch one day and told me that their drummer had been in an accident, so could I stand-in for them as they had a gig booked up in Chelmsford. So I said, ‘Yeah, why not?’ and then a couple of hours later, Adam and Jordan turned-up on my doorstep, looking like Martians! No-one had ever seen people looking like that, at least not in Wood Green. So, anyway, we played the gig and then Adam said that I’d played well and did I want the job? So that was the beginning of my… misadventures!’
Had you been impressed by the band when you first saw them?
‘Well, it was just a kind of chaotic, punch-up noise to begin with. I’d count-off ‘one-two-three-four’ and we’d all play our hearts out. There’d be fighting and spitting and Adam would be rolling around on dog-ends… It wasn’t so much about the music, as such, it was more about the event and I loved that. It was very exciting and totally different to anything that I’d ever experienced or known.’
At that time, the whole Punk Rock scene was still pretty new. What did you think of the new styles and sounds?
‘I don’t think I had any preconceptions about it, so when I heard ‘Anarchy in the UK’, I really liked it and that was all that mattered. I also loved the fact that they were shaking things up.’
Most of the early Punk bands in the UK had their own individual style, but even by those standards, The Ants were very different to everything else that was going on…
‘Oh yeah, I totally agree with that. I mean, I get to work with a lot of people now who weren’t around in those early Punk days, so they think of Punk Rock as some bloke with a funny hair-cut, on the ponce in Camden Town. But really, it was all about the music and each of the early bands were very, very different. The Buzzcocks, X-Ray Spex, The Ants, the Banshees, the Pistols, The Clash, The Damned… they were all very different and had their own identity. It was nothing to do with the thrashy rubbish that came along later and that’s why so much of that early stuff still stands-up in any era, and sounds great. As they say, ‘Form is temporary, Class is permanent’. Most of the stuff that gets called ‘punk’ nowadays really isn’t my idea of what it was, originally. I’ve always thought that, essentially, it was an Art movement based on individuality and finding a way to express yourself, whether it be with music or t-shirts or whatever you were doing. It was never a business thing, it was more about what you could create.’
The Ants soon became very popular, playing larger venues and developing a loyal following, but unlike most of the early Punk bands, they were not signed-up by a major label (apart from a brief, unfulfilling stint at Decca.) Was there any interest shown by bigger labels, or did the band prefer independent labels?
‘I’m not really sure. Adam ran all of the business side of things and dealt with his agents and advisors. The rest of us were kept pretty separate from all of that and I was just happy to be playing in The Ants because it was a great band. I’d never really had ambitions to make lots of money, so I was just happy to be there.’
The bands’ first album, ‘Dirk Wears White Sox’, was released in 1979 and is still highly-regarded to this day. When you look back at it, are you happy with the way it came out or do you think anything should have been done differently?
‘Actually, I don’t think I’ve even had a copy of it for four or five years! But I do know that a lot of people still love it and revere it, and when I do get to hear bits and pieces of it, I can see why. It’s a very unique set of songs. I loved doing it and I still feel humble that I was part of it.’
Famously, Adam persuaded Jordan to be the bands’ first manager, even though she had no experience…
‘Well, I don’t think that situation lasted very long and, really, it was more down to the fact that they looked so great together. I don’t think Adam took it very serious, but she did set up some of our early gigs.’
‘Oh yeah, I totally agree with that. I mean, I get to work with a lot of people now who weren’t around in those early Punk days, so they think of Punk Rock as some bloke with a funny hair-cut, on the ponce in Camden Town. But really, it was all about the music and each of the early bands were very, very different. The Buzzcocks, X-Ray Spex, The Ants, the Banshees, the Pistols, The Clash, The Damned… they were all very different and had their own identity. It was nothing to do with the thrashy rubbish that came along later and that’s why so much of that early stuff still stands-up in any era, and sounds great. As they say, ‘Form is temporary, Class is permanent’. Most of the stuff that gets called ‘punk’ nowadays really isn’t my idea of what it was, originally. I’ve always thought that, essentially, it was an Art movement based on individuality and finding a way to express yourself, whether it be with music or t-shirts or whatever you were doing. It was never a business thing, it was more about what you could create.’
The Ants soon became very popular, playing larger venues and developing a loyal following, but unlike most of the early Punk bands, they were not signed-up by a major label (apart from a brief, unfulfilling stint at Decca.) Was there any interest shown by bigger labels, or did the band prefer independent labels?
‘I’m not really sure. Adam ran all of the business side of things and dealt with his agents and advisors. The rest of us were kept pretty separate from all of that and I was just happy to be playing in The Ants because it was a great band. I’d never really had ambitions to make lots of money, so I was just happy to be there.’
The bands’ first album, ‘Dirk Wears White Sox’, was released in 1979 and is still highly-regarded to this day. When you look back at it, are you happy with the way it came out or do you think anything should have been done differently?
‘Actually, I don’t think I’ve even had a copy of it for four or five years! But I do know that a lot of people still love it and revere it, and when I do get to hear bits and pieces of it, I can see why. It’s a very unique set of songs. I loved doing it and I still feel humble that I was part of it.’
Famously, Adam persuaded Jordan to be the bands’ first manager, even though she had no experience…
‘Well, I don’t think that situation lasted very long and, really, it was more down to the fact that they looked so great together. I don’t think Adam took it very serious, but she did set up some of our early gigs.’
Later on, he employed Malcolm McLaren to manage the band. Do you think Adam liked the idea of working with them rather than a regular ‘showbiz’ manager, because they were already recognised characters?
‘Yeah, I think that was a part of it. I mean, I certainly didn’t think there was anything wrong with the idea of working with Malcolm, even though it didn’t work-out too well for Adam in the short term. But I think the problem for Malcolm was that Adam was already fully formed by that point. He already had his own image and had released a popular album, so he was already an established artist with his own vision and his own direction. Malcolm was a guy who would put vision and direction into a band who didn’t already have it, but he couldn’t do that with Adam. It would have been like taking Marc Bolan or Bryan Ferry and telling them that he was going to ‘invent’ their character… you can’t do that with people like them because they’d already done it for themselves.’
Had the band been given any say in the decision to work with Malcom?
‘No, as I said, Adam dealt with all of that stuff. It was his thing and he ran it from top to bottom.’
When Malcolm decided that he wanted to continue working with the band members but not with Adam, did you, Leigh and Matthew know what he was planning before he told Adam?
‘Well, I can’t speak for the others, but in my case, by the time Malcolm started to bring his presence in to the whole rehearsal-atmosphere and stuff, I’d already been working with Adam for three years or more. When Malcolm started making comments, it appealed to me because it was just the way I’m wired. It was the same reason why I left my mates in Desolation Angels in the first place, because I’d been offered the chance of staying with them and jamming-out Marvin Gaye numbers in the school hall, or going off with this mad-looking bloke whose band were playing gigs at The Roxy. It felt like a big deal when I’d done that, but then Malcolm came along and started telling me, ‘You could be the star, you could run your own band and front your own thing. You don’t need to be somebody’s side-man… be an artist, be yourself…’ That was incredibly attractive for me, so I said, ‘Okay, I’ll do it!’ I told Adam, that’s it, I’m off, and I’m glad I made that decision because if I hadn’t, I’d probably still just be one of Adam’s boys, getting a pat on the head when things went well. That’s not the way I wanted to carry on.’
‘Yeah, I think that was a part of it. I mean, I certainly didn’t think there was anything wrong with the idea of working with Malcolm, even though it didn’t work-out too well for Adam in the short term. But I think the problem for Malcolm was that Adam was already fully formed by that point. He already had his own image and had released a popular album, so he was already an established artist with his own vision and his own direction. Malcolm was a guy who would put vision and direction into a band who didn’t already have it, but he couldn’t do that with Adam. It would have been like taking Marc Bolan or Bryan Ferry and telling them that he was going to ‘invent’ their character… you can’t do that with people like them because they’d already done it for themselves.’
Had the band been given any say in the decision to work with Malcom?
‘No, as I said, Adam dealt with all of that stuff. It was his thing and he ran it from top to bottom.’
When Malcolm decided that he wanted to continue working with the band members but not with Adam, did you, Leigh and Matthew know what he was planning before he told Adam?
‘Well, I can’t speak for the others, but in my case, by the time Malcolm started to bring his presence in to the whole rehearsal-atmosphere and stuff, I’d already been working with Adam for three years or more. When Malcolm started making comments, it appealed to me because it was just the way I’m wired. It was the same reason why I left my mates in Desolation Angels in the first place, because I’d been offered the chance of staying with them and jamming-out Marvin Gaye numbers in the school hall, or going off with this mad-looking bloke whose band were playing gigs at The Roxy. It felt like a big deal when I’d done that, but then Malcolm came along and started telling me, ‘You could be the star, you could run your own band and front your own thing. You don’t need to be somebody’s side-man… be an artist, be yourself…’ That was incredibly attractive for me, so I said, ‘Okay, I’ll do it!’ I told Adam, that’s it, I’m off, and I’m glad I made that decision because if I hadn’t, I’d probably still just be one of Adam’s boys, getting a pat on the head when things went well. That’s not the way I wanted to carry on.’
The story that was told in the music press was that Malcolm had ‘discovered’ Annabella Lwin singing in a north London launderette… How much of that was true?
‘Well, it wasn’t Malcolm who found her, it was one of his mates. Malcolm had been scouting around for people to try-out as a singer and we’d probably seen around fifty or sixty different people by that point. But then, one of his mates told him about this girl who was quite charismatic and had a Saturday-job in a launderette up in West Hampstead, so they got in touch and persuaded her to come down for an audition. As soon as she came-in, we knew the chemistry was there even though she couldn’t hold a tune down to begin with! But I think we’d already seen enough of these chisel-jawed, punk rock types, so as soon as we found her we were off!’
Both the new Adam and The Ants and Bow Wow Wow (as well as many other bands over the following years) adopted rhythmic styles that were usually referred to as ‘tribal’, but there was some controversy over who had actually initiated it…
‘In my case, it was just a trick that I already had in my ‘sticking’. Malcolm had been saying that he didn’t want the usual snare drum and hi-hats in our sound and that it had to be all about the toms… I’d grown-up listening to a lot of Latin and West Indian music and I think, with my Dad being African, it must’ve just been in me. Somehow, I already seemed to have that perspective towards rhythm, even if I wasn’t very good, technically. But when we put it together with Leigh’s bass playing and Matthews’ attitude, it sounded great, and when we added Annabella doing her thing, we came up with something really special and unique. But the thing was, when we left Adam, we left our rehearsal tapes behind and consequently… the new Ants came up with a sound that was sort-of similar. But I think the way he did it was much-more of a Pop thing. He’d already done the hard work being a credible artist and going through the punk rock thing, so when we all quit, he decided that he’d become a millionaire pop-star and as he had so much talent as a performer, that’s what he achieved.’
Was there ever any rivalry between the two bands?
‘Not really… Adam was streets ahead of us, even by the time we got going. He already had the popularity and success by then. I suppose we had a certain passion and gravity in our songs, but that wasn’t something you could put up against those incredibly-catchy pop songs that Adam had and was playing to massive audiences. In our case, I think our sound was more dark and dangerous so it wasn’t going to appeal to the same type of people.’
I’m also not sure whether ‘Bow Wow Wow’ was an immediately-catchy name for the band and didn’t really represent the type of music you were playing…
‘That was another one of Malcolm’s idea and I think it was just because he liked to give things a silly name. He tried to give me a silly name, he gave John Rotten a silly name… I really don’t know, but he obviously liked silly names!’
‘Well, it wasn’t Malcolm who found her, it was one of his mates. Malcolm had been scouting around for people to try-out as a singer and we’d probably seen around fifty or sixty different people by that point. But then, one of his mates told him about this girl who was quite charismatic and had a Saturday-job in a launderette up in West Hampstead, so they got in touch and persuaded her to come down for an audition. As soon as she came-in, we knew the chemistry was there even though she couldn’t hold a tune down to begin with! But I think we’d already seen enough of these chisel-jawed, punk rock types, so as soon as we found her we were off!’
Both the new Adam and The Ants and Bow Wow Wow (as well as many other bands over the following years) adopted rhythmic styles that were usually referred to as ‘tribal’, but there was some controversy over who had actually initiated it…
‘In my case, it was just a trick that I already had in my ‘sticking’. Malcolm had been saying that he didn’t want the usual snare drum and hi-hats in our sound and that it had to be all about the toms… I’d grown-up listening to a lot of Latin and West Indian music and I think, with my Dad being African, it must’ve just been in me. Somehow, I already seemed to have that perspective towards rhythm, even if I wasn’t very good, technically. But when we put it together with Leigh’s bass playing and Matthews’ attitude, it sounded great, and when we added Annabella doing her thing, we came up with something really special and unique. But the thing was, when we left Adam, we left our rehearsal tapes behind and consequently… the new Ants came up with a sound that was sort-of similar. But I think the way he did it was much-more of a Pop thing. He’d already done the hard work being a credible artist and going through the punk rock thing, so when we all quit, he decided that he’d become a millionaire pop-star and as he had so much talent as a performer, that’s what he achieved.’
Was there ever any rivalry between the two bands?
‘Not really… Adam was streets ahead of us, even by the time we got going. He already had the popularity and success by then. I suppose we had a certain passion and gravity in our songs, but that wasn’t something you could put up against those incredibly-catchy pop songs that Adam had and was playing to massive audiences. In our case, I think our sound was more dark and dangerous so it wasn’t going to appeal to the same type of people.’
I’m also not sure whether ‘Bow Wow Wow’ was an immediately-catchy name for the band and didn’t really represent the type of music you were playing…
‘That was another one of Malcolm’s idea and I think it was just because he liked to give things a silly name. He tried to give me a silly name, he gave John Rotten a silly name… I really don’t know, but he obviously liked silly names!’
Ironically, following the escapades he had with the Sex Pistols, Malcolm managed to get the band signed to EMI, where you released the single ‘C30,C60,C90 Go!’. It inevitably caused controversy as it promoted home-taping at the same time that the BPI were launching their ‘Home Taping is Killing Music’ campaign…
‘Well, it wasn’t as if they hadn’t heard the song before they released it! EMI really acted stupidly over that, because we were told that it was on course to be Number One, but then they got upset about it and pulled it from the charts, even though it was selling well!’
As it turned-out out, home taping didn’t destroy the music-industry, although the lyrics were pretty prescient when you consider what subsequently happened more recently, when downloading became widely available…
‘Yeah, they managed to work their way around home-taping but time moves on and things evolve. It may have taken forty years, but the record was proved right, hahaha!’
Bow Wow Wow were dropped by EMI after only a couple of singles and the ‘Your Cassette Pet’ album. Was that down to the bands’ support for home-taping…
‘Yeah, it was all to do with ‘C30…’ They suddenly realised what the single was all about and that it was bad for their business. But then RCA signed us almost straight-away and we seemed to go from strength to strength. The problem was that switching labels meant there were even more contracts involved. We may have been playing hundreds of gigs, all over the world, but it was the lawyers and accountants, the ones drafting all these contracts, that were making all the money! I mean, to this day, I don’t have any publishing from Bow Wow Wow even though I was credited as a writer on most of the songs. I don’t even know how that happened! The only positive thing that I can say I got from The Ants and Bow Wow Wow is that it’s a great calling card and that’s why I’m still able to make a living from playing drums, even now.’
Another thing that became more controversial around this time was the sexualisation of Annabella, particularly as she was still under 16…
‘Well, Malcolm loved to poke the hornet’s nest. He’d done it any way he could with the Pistols and then he tried to do it with us. The thing was, we didn’t really know too much about what he had going on, because we were too busy rehearsing, gigging and touring. We were always more concerned with the music and that applied to Annabella as well. She was busy learning her words and figuring how to dance onstage. When you’re in a band like that, you’re either in a van, at a hotel or playing the gigs, so we didn’t really see what else was going on. We often didn’t know what Malcolm was doing behind the scenes and wouldn’t dare ask him, so we didn’t find out about these things until two years later. The only thing he always insisted directly to the band was that we had to wear Vivienne’s clothes. We ended-up advertising them all around the world for him, but never got paid a penny for it. Then again, I’ve never been paid a penny for ‘Dirk Wears White Sox’, either, so, you know, that’s just the way of the world. But all the things that Malcolm was doing, promoting home-taping, the sexualisation of the band and his various business deals, we weren’t really party to it because we were too busy getting ourselves out there and playing. Myself, I just loved playing and I think we all did, so we didn’t concern ourselves with what was going on back in the office. It wasn’t until years later, when you’re a bit more mature, that you realise that you’ve done all of this stuff but you ain’t got a pot to piss-in!’
‘Well, it wasn’t as if they hadn’t heard the song before they released it! EMI really acted stupidly over that, because we were told that it was on course to be Number One, but then they got upset about it and pulled it from the charts, even though it was selling well!’
As it turned-out out, home taping didn’t destroy the music-industry, although the lyrics were pretty prescient when you consider what subsequently happened more recently, when downloading became widely available…
‘Yeah, they managed to work their way around home-taping but time moves on and things evolve. It may have taken forty years, but the record was proved right, hahaha!’
Bow Wow Wow were dropped by EMI after only a couple of singles and the ‘Your Cassette Pet’ album. Was that down to the bands’ support for home-taping…
‘Yeah, it was all to do with ‘C30…’ They suddenly realised what the single was all about and that it was bad for their business. But then RCA signed us almost straight-away and we seemed to go from strength to strength. The problem was that switching labels meant there were even more contracts involved. We may have been playing hundreds of gigs, all over the world, but it was the lawyers and accountants, the ones drafting all these contracts, that were making all the money! I mean, to this day, I don’t have any publishing from Bow Wow Wow even though I was credited as a writer on most of the songs. I don’t even know how that happened! The only positive thing that I can say I got from The Ants and Bow Wow Wow is that it’s a great calling card and that’s why I’m still able to make a living from playing drums, even now.’
Another thing that became more controversial around this time was the sexualisation of Annabella, particularly as she was still under 16…
‘Well, Malcolm loved to poke the hornet’s nest. He’d done it any way he could with the Pistols and then he tried to do it with us. The thing was, we didn’t really know too much about what he had going on, because we were too busy rehearsing, gigging and touring. We were always more concerned with the music and that applied to Annabella as well. She was busy learning her words and figuring how to dance onstage. When you’re in a band like that, you’re either in a van, at a hotel or playing the gigs, so we didn’t really see what else was going on. We often didn’t know what Malcolm was doing behind the scenes and wouldn’t dare ask him, so we didn’t find out about these things until two years later. The only thing he always insisted directly to the band was that we had to wear Vivienne’s clothes. We ended-up advertising them all around the world for him, but never got paid a penny for it. Then again, I’ve never been paid a penny for ‘Dirk Wears White Sox’, either, so, you know, that’s just the way of the world. But all the things that Malcolm was doing, promoting home-taping, the sexualisation of the band and his various business deals, we weren’t really party to it because we were too busy getting ourselves out there and playing. Myself, I just loved playing and I think we all did, so we didn’t concern ourselves with what was going on back in the office. It wasn’t until years later, when you’re a bit more mature, that you realise that you’ve done all of this stuff but you ain’t got a pot to piss-in!’
You made a second album for RCA, but then split-up shortly after its’ release…
‘We were all just burnt-out by then. As I said, we had these awful lawyers and accountants telling us what to do and they were just sending us out on the road, month after month. Matthew, in particular, became very ill and developed diabetes. Annabella and Leigh had both ended up in hospital at different times, suffering from exhaustion. I was alright, comparatively, as I was a pretty clean-living lad and I already had two kids by then, so I was anchored to more of a regular home-life when we were off the road. But it was horrible to be in a position where there were these people behind the scenes making their money out of sending young kids, which is what we basically were, out on the road and then just giving them a can of beer and a packet of fags for their wages. It all fell to pieces when Matthew developed diabetes, which was a really serious thing. I think it really challenged his perspective about the band and he decided that he was going to leave. I suppose Annabella could have carried on, but she had no experience of putting a new band together and I don’t think Leigh knew what he wanted to do. In my case, Matthew had always been my best mate, all the way back to The Ants, so I stayed loyal to him. He decided that he wanted to put a new band together and he would be the singer, so I agreed to start rehearsing with him and then Leigh came in with us. But I have to say that it wasn’t sounding very good, plus the habits of certain band members really didn’t agree with me, so although I’d written some new stuff with Matthew, I decided to chuck it in and concentrate on bringing-up my sons. I left music for a few years and that was it for quite a while.’
When you returned to music in the late Eighties, you started a career as a session musician…
‘Well, pretty-much. Albeit a second-rate session-musician, hahaha! But the first gig I got was working with Norman Cook and Beats International for a few years. I was still playing drums, but now it was a job. I played with Chicane, who were an Ibiza-House band, then I was with Republica for a few years. There were a few other pretty-big sessions and then I was with Roland Gift for years and years… It was alright because I always enjoy playing drums in a band, but there’s nothing like being in your own band, you know? I mean, I’d always felt that The Ants was my band as well, because I always had carte-blanche to play the drums the way I wanted to play them. Obviously, I was even more involved in Bow Wow Wow, musically, but it’s very rare to be able to do that.’
‘We were all just burnt-out by then. As I said, we had these awful lawyers and accountants telling us what to do and they were just sending us out on the road, month after month. Matthew, in particular, became very ill and developed diabetes. Annabella and Leigh had both ended up in hospital at different times, suffering from exhaustion. I was alright, comparatively, as I was a pretty clean-living lad and I already had two kids by then, so I was anchored to more of a regular home-life when we were off the road. But it was horrible to be in a position where there were these people behind the scenes making their money out of sending young kids, which is what we basically were, out on the road and then just giving them a can of beer and a packet of fags for their wages. It all fell to pieces when Matthew developed diabetes, which was a really serious thing. I think it really challenged his perspective about the band and he decided that he was going to leave. I suppose Annabella could have carried on, but she had no experience of putting a new band together and I don’t think Leigh knew what he wanted to do. In my case, Matthew had always been my best mate, all the way back to The Ants, so I stayed loyal to him. He decided that he wanted to put a new band together and he would be the singer, so I agreed to start rehearsing with him and then Leigh came in with us. But I have to say that it wasn’t sounding very good, plus the habits of certain band members really didn’t agree with me, so although I’d written some new stuff with Matthew, I decided to chuck it in and concentrate on bringing-up my sons. I left music for a few years and that was it for quite a while.’
When you returned to music in the late Eighties, you started a career as a session musician…
‘Well, pretty-much. Albeit a second-rate session-musician, hahaha! But the first gig I got was working with Norman Cook and Beats International for a few years. I was still playing drums, but now it was a job. I played with Chicane, who were an Ibiza-House band, then I was with Republica for a few years. There were a few other pretty-big sessions and then I was with Roland Gift for years and years… It was alright because I always enjoy playing drums in a band, but there’s nothing like being in your own band, you know? I mean, I’d always felt that The Ants was my band as well, because I always had carte-blanche to play the drums the way I wanted to play them. Obviously, I was even more involved in Bow Wow Wow, musically, but it’s very rare to be able to do that.’
Over the years, there have been several Bow Wow Wow reunions, but apart from the one-off Tribute Concert for Matthew Ashman at the Kings Cross Scala in 2010, you haven’t been involved. Has that been your decision?
‘Well, yeah, because Leigh and Annabella were both living in Los Angeles by then and they probably would have wanted me to move over there as well. They’re both American citizens these days and that’s probably where there’s the most interest in the band, now. They started doing stuff with a couple of new members but then had a massive falling-out and it still hasn’t been patched up, which is why there are now two different versions of the band… I suppose they’ve both got a right to use the name, as they were both integral members. But the only time I played with them was the Benefit gig at the Scala to celebrate Matthew.’
Since that gig was headlined by Adam Ant, there were a lot of rumours going around that you and Leigh would also play some songs with him…
‘Actually, I was told beforehand that we were going to do that, but for some reason Adam wouldn’t do it in the end. I think he hated Matthew, anyway!’
But then he relented a few years later, when both you and Leigh joined his current band for his ‘Dirk Wears White Sox’ tour in 2014…
‘Well, I’d already played a huge tour with him back in 1995, the ‘Wonderful’ Tour, which included Marco and two drummers, me and Dave Ruffy. And then years later he called me up and said he was going to be doing something for the ‘Dirk’ anniversary. He told me that we’d never done the whole thing live, even back in the day. I thought we must have done it at some point, but he assured me that we’d never played it all the way through… So we all went into the studio, started rehearsing, and it was surprising how complex that album was. But we did it, played the gigs and it was a great thing to do. It sort of squared the circle.’
In recent years, Adam has returned touring on a pretty regular basis. Has there ever been any chance of you rejoining his band on a more permanent basis?
‘No, it’s still like being staff that he can call on if he needs you. But he’s a brilliant man, which is why he’s still playing now. He’s like a shark and if he doesn’t play, he’ll sink. But he’s a true legend, a British pop icon., and he deserves his success.’
‘Well, yeah, because Leigh and Annabella were both living in Los Angeles by then and they probably would have wanted me to move over there as well. They’re both American citizens these days and that’s probably where there’s the most interest in the band, now. They started doing stuff with a couple of new members but then had a massive falling-out and it still hasn’t been patched up, which is why there are now two different versions of the band… I suppose they’ve both got a right to use the name, as they were both integral members. But the only time I played with them was the Benefit gig at the Scala to celebrate Matthew.’
Since that gig was headlined by Adam Ant, there were a lot of rumours going around that you and Leigh would also play some songs with him…
‘Actually, I was told beforehand that we were going to do that, but for some reason Adam wouldn’t do it in the end. I think he hated Matthew, anyway!’
But then he relented a few years later, when both you and Leigh joined his current band for his ‘Dirk Wears White Sox’ tour in 2014…
‘Well, I’d already played a huge tour with him back in 1995, the ‘Wonderful’ Tour, which included Marco and two drummers, me and Dave Ruffy. And then years later he called me up and said he was going to be doing something for the ‘Dirk’ anniversary. He told me that we’d never done the whole thing live, even back in the day. I thought we must have done it at some point, but he assured me that we’d never played it all the way through… So we all went into the studio, started rehearsing, and it was surprising how complex that album was. But we did it, played the gigs and it was a great thing to do. It sort of squared the circle.’
In recent years, Adam has returned touring on a pretty regular basis. Has there ever been any chance of you rejoining his band on a more permanent basis?
‘No, it’s still like being staff that he can call on if he needs you. But he’s a brilliant man, which is why he’s still playing now. He’s like a shark and if he doesn’t play, he’ll sink. But he’s a true legend, a British pop icon., and he deserves his success.’
As well as continuing to play music, you also had your first novel, ‘Mud Sharks’, published in 2012. It suffered from distribution problems at the time, but you’ve recently republished yourself, to make it more easily available…
‘I had a really terrible experience with the publishing world. The people I worked with first time around had introduced themselves as publishers but in fact they were really just printers and all they did was take a percentage of what I sold! But it did get a good response when it first came out, so a friend of mine re-formatted the book and I’ve now put it out myself. This way, I can make some money out of it and it seems to be doing better already. And I also have another book coming out, called ‘Mute’, which will be with a real publisher! They’re going to promote it properly and do other things for it. They’ve had it proof-read and edited professionally, so it’ll probably be out sometime early in the New Year.’
Had you written anything else prior to ‘Mud Sharks’?
‘No, but I’ve always been an avid reader, ever since I was a little kid. To this day, I’ll always have a kindle with me and I’ll read and read and read… I actually left school when I was 14 and never sat for any exams, but I think because I read so much it stood me in good stead for when I decided to start writing. But even so, ‘Mud Sharks’ is full of holes and I know that, but I still think it’s a good place to start and an earnest effort. It’s from the heart and some people have loved it. But I think it’s like ‘Dirk…’ If you played on that album, you’d probably listen to it now and be thinking, we could have done it so much better! But right now, I’m looking forward to when people read ‘Mute’ and hearing what they think of it.’
‘Mud Sharks’ is a novel rather than a biography, but you have obviously borrowed a lot of the events and circumstances from your own experiences…
‘Absolutely! I’ve actually been told that, with most writers, their first novel is usually their most auto-biographic. It just happens that with my novel, a lot of people already know about my career because I was in these famous groups. Not that I was famous, personally, but the groups were famous and people who followed them will probably know some of these things about me. I mean, if I worked in a bank and wrote a book set in the banking world, then there wouldn’t be readers who already knew these things and they’d just concentrate on the story. But there is a lot of my career in the book, although it’s not a chronological, step-by-step thing. I’m just using instances and things that happened to me, putting them together to create the story. I’m sure that some people did read it as if it was a biography and got quite confused, but that’s okay. I don’t mind that I had to do some explaining!’
Had you ever considered writing a straight-forward auto-biography?
‘I have been asked to do one a few times, but I’ve never really been interested because the amount of time it would take, I’d much rather work on a novel. One of the lucky things about the position I’m in, is that I can pretty-much do what I please, really, for good or ill. There aren’t many things that I do just because I have to do them.’
Will your new book, ‘Mute’, be similar in any ways to ‘Mud Sharks’ ?
‘Well, it is set in the music business, again. It’s the story of a kid who’s a keyboard player in a famous group, where everything goes wrong. The musicians in the band get treated really badly by the singer, but the keyboard player falls in love with a girl who’s very mysterious and everything evolves from there…’
‘I had a really terrible experience with the publishing world. The people I worked with first time around had introduced themselves as publishers but in fact they were really just printers and all they did was take a percentage of what I sold! But it did get a good response when it first came out, so a friend of mine re-formatted the book and I’ve now put it out myself. This way, I can make some money out of it and it seems to be doing better already. And I also have another book coming out, called ‘Mute’, which will be with a real publisher! They’re going to promote it properly and do other things for it. They’ve had it proof-read and edited professionally, so it’ll probably be out sometime early in the New Year.’
Had you written anything else prior to ‘Mud Sharks’?
‘No, but I’ve always been an avid reader, ever since I was a little kid. To this day, I’ll always have a kindle with me and I’ll read and read and read… I actually left school when I was 14 and never sat for any exams, but I think because I read so much it stood me in good stead for when I decided to start writing. But even so, ‘Mud Sharks’ is full of holes and I know that, but I still think it’s a good place to start and an earnest effort. It’s from the heart and some people have loved it. But I think it’s like ‘Dirk…’ If you played on that album, you’d probably listen to it now and be thinking, we could have done it so much better! But right now, I’m looking forward to when people read ‘Mute’ and hearing what they think of it.’
‘Mud Sharks’ is a novel rather than a biography, but you have obviously borrowed a lot of the events and circumstances from your own experiences…
‘Absolutely! I’ve actually been told that, with most writers, their first novel is usually their most auto-biographic. It just happens that with my novel, a lot of people already know about my career because I was in these famous groups. Not that I was famous, personally, but the groups were famous and people who followed them will probably know some of these things about me. I mean, if I worked in a bank and wrote a book set in the banking world, then there wouldn’t be readers who already knew these things and they’d just concentrate on the story. But there is a lot of my career in the book, although it’s not a chronological, step-by-step thing. I’m just using instances and things that happened to me, putting them together to create the story. I’m sure that some people did read it as if it was a biography and got quite confused, but that’s okay. I don’t mind that I had to do some explaining!’
Had you ever considered writing a straight-forward auto-biography?
‘I have been asked to do one a few times, but I’ve never really been interested because the amount of time it would take, I’d much rather work on a novel. One of the lucky things about the position I’m in, is that I can pretty-much do what I please, really, for good or ill. There aren’t many things that I do just because I have to do them.’
Will your new book, ‘Mute’, be similar in any ways to ‘Mud Sharks’ ?
‘Well, it is set in the music business, again. It’s the story of a kid who’s a keyboard player in a famous group, where everything goes wrong. The musicians in the band get treated really badly by the singer, but the keyboard player falls in love with a girl who’s very mysterious and everything evolves from there…’
And on top of all this, you’ve also recently started to play gigs with a new band, Telekinetic Dog…
‘Well, so far we’ve only being playing as a two-piece, myself and a guitarist called Pascal, but we’re just about to play our first gig with a vocalist, Umair, and it’ll be interesting to see how that goes. He’s got a real talent for lyrics and arrangements, although he’s not too experienced as a singer so far. But I think it’s going to come together and he’ll do really well. To find someone who can write these lyrics the way he can is very fortunate and I think the next few gigs are going to be a try-out for us, to see how it goes and give him a chance to settle-in and find his voice. I’m really excited about it’
How did the band come together? I get the impression that it was just something you and Pascal started doing for fun, rather than intending it to be a full-on band from the outset?
‘Yeah, that’s what it was. Me and Pascal were both working on a session together and we got chatting about music. He’s always worked as a session-boy and has survived on his wits and skill playing for other people, which is a fucking hard game. It involves a lot of knuckling-under, which can be tough. I’d been playing with Roland Gift up until then and I was saying about how he really kind-of micro-managed the way that I played drums. He was a pretty hard taskmaster, a bit like Adam in some ways, so we were saying, wouldn’t it be great to do something where we could just play? We suddenly realised and looked at each other and said, well, why don’t we? I’ve got a little room in Shepherds Bush, which I use when I need to practice something, so we went down there and started to put this new thing together. It was all instrumental to begin with, but it was very interesting, never a dull moment. We talked about trying to get a singer right from the beginning, but we wanted someone who would never leave the rehearsal room, like it was in the old days. You know, waiting for a great singer to turn up! And ultimately, we’ve found someone, although as I said, we’re still working on it and it’s not quite the finished article just yet. But I’d much rather do things this way rather than going the ‘Britain’s Got Talent’ way, where someone might be able to sing but they’ve got no personality or creativity. I’d much rather go for the old Punk Rock way of waiting to find the right person.’
It seems to be developing very naturally, from something you were just doing in the studio for fun, to becoming an actual band playing live and now adding a singer…
‘Yeah, well, Pascal is always very busy with his session work, while I wasn’t looking for something where I’d get to play every-other Sunday for a few quid. It’s the one thing I have from the bands that I’ve been in, that if I do something new, there are some people that will turn up to see what I’m doing. But I think we both wanted to do this for a laugh and a bit of release, so we started playing and decided to see where it would go. We started by playing little bits together and then seeing how we could link them-up to create songs. Once we were happy with the first few songs, we started thinking about putting a set together, so what we’ve been playing live is just the result of that process. But it has been hard work, because without a front-person, you really have to make sure that you can keep the audience interested. It’s very challenging, but when it comes together, it’s a great buzz.’
‘Well, so far we’ve only being playing as a two-piece, myself and a guitarist called Pascal, but we’re just about to play our first gig with a vocalist, Umair, and it’ll be interesting to see how that goes. He’s got a real talent for lyrics and arrangements, although he’s not too experienced as a singer so far. But I think it’s going to come together and he’ll do really well. To find someone who can write these lyrics the way he can is very fortunate and I think the next few gigs are going to be a try-out for us, to see how it goes and give him a chance to settle-in and find his voice. I’m really excited about it’
How did the band come together? I get the impression that it was just something you and Pascal started doing for fun, rather than intending it to be a full-on band from the outset?
‘Yeah, that’s what it was. Me and Pascal were both working on a session together and we got chatting about music. He’s always worked as a session-boy and has survived on his wits and skill playing for other people, which is a fucking hard game. It involves a lot of knuckling-under, which can be tough. I’d been playing with Roland Gift up until then and I was saying about how he really kind-of micro-managed the way that I played drums. He was a pretty hard taskmaster, a bit like Adam in some ways, so we were saying, wouldn’t it be great to do something where we could just play? We suddenly realised and looked at each other and said, well, why don’t we? I’ve got a little room in Shepherds Bush, which I use when I need to practice something, so we went down there and started to put this new thing together. It was all instrumental to begin with, but it was very interesting, never a dull moment. We talked about trying to get a singer right from the beginning, but we wanted someone who would never leave the rehearsal room, like it was in the old days. You know, waiting for a great singer to turn up! And ultimately, we’ve found someone, although as I said, we’re still working on it and it’s not quite the finished article just yet. But I’d much rather do things this way rather than going the ‘Britain’s Got Talent’ way, where someone might be able to sing but they’ve got no personality or creativity. I’d much rather go for the old Punk Rock way of waiting to find the right person.’
It seems to be developing very naturally, from something you were just doing in the studio for fun, to becoming an actual band playing live and now adding a singer…
‘Yeah, well, Pascal is always very busy with his session work, while I wasn’t looking for something where I’d get to play every-other Sunday for a few quid. It’s the one thing I have from the bands that I’ve been in, that if I do something new, there are some people that will turn up to see what I’m doing. But I think we both wanted to do this for a laugh and a bit of release, so we started playing and decided to see where it would go. We started by playing little bits together and then seeing how we could link them-up to create songs. Once we were happy with the first few songs, we started thinking about putting a set together, so what we’ve been playing live is just the result of that process. But it has been hard work, because without a front-person, you really have to make sure that you can keep the audience interested. It’s very challenging, but when it comes together, it’s a great buzz.’
For anyone who has followed music since 1977, Dave Barbarossa is someone who should be instantly recognisable as a major contributor to the music that we all love. The fact that now, nearly five decades later, he’s still pursuing his creative urges and creating new music as well as literature, is something that any genuine fan should support. Check out his novel, ‘Mud Sharks’, and look out for the upcoming ‘Mute’. as well. But most urgently, make an effort to hear his new band ‘Telekinetic Dog’ at the earliest opportunity. As he said himself, their music is interesting and exciting and it’s not often that we get to see a band with so much potential as they’re still developing. Don't miss the opportunity!