Sometime in the mid Eighties, I was in a used-record shop with my friend Kerry when he spotted a single that he pretty-much insisted that I had to buy. It was by an American band called ‘Flipper’ and although I had heard the name before, I knew nothing about them. But Kerry was adamant that it was great and he wasn’t going to let me leave the shop unless I bought it. Faced with such a dilemma, I had little choice but to pay-up whether I wanted to or not. But when I got home and played the record, I was very happy that he had been so insistent. The record was the ‘Sex Bomb’ 7” and I instantly became a fan of the band.
I tracked-down the rest of their singles and their two classic albums (‘Generic’ and ‘Gone Fishin’) over the next year or so and continued to be impressed. They played Punk Rock, but it didn’t sound like any Punk Rock you’d ever heard before. The music was rhythm-based and repetitive while the guitar-sound whipped-up a chaotic wall of noise and the lyrics could switch from the minimal to the poetical, but there was also always a twisted sense of humour at play. You never really knew what the next song was going to sound like and that was so exciting.
Back then, before the internet, you would only find occasional information about the band in imported magazines like ‘Maximum Rock’n’Roll’, but I kept my fingers-crossed that they would eventually make it over for a UK tour. Unfortunately, the news that did eventually filter through was not what I wanted to hear. Singer / bassist Will Shatter died from an OD at the end of 1987 and, for all intent and purpose, the band was no more.
However, three years later a new single unexpectedly-emerged on Subterranean Records, heralding their return. Again, little information was available but a new live album ‘Nurnberg Fish Trials’ was released in 1991 and the following it was announced that a new studio album, ‘American Grafishy’, was going to be released on Rick Rubins’ Def American label and would also have a UK release ! Shortly after, I found out that drummer Steve De Pace and guitarist Ted Falconi were going to be in London for interviews and that’s how I finally got to meet them. They proved to be really cool people and I’ve remained friends with them ever since. At the time, I was releasing 7” singles with each fanzine and Steve offered me a track to release, a remix of ‘Sex Bomb’ by his friend, The Crack Emcee. It bore very little resemblance to the original version, but in the true spirit of Flipper, it was a lot of fun !
Flipper finally played in the UK during 1993, including a particularly chaotic date at Camden Underworld when they were supported by The Muffs. Things seemed to be going well them, as many of the bands involved in the new Grunge scene (Nirvana, Melvins, Mudhoney) were citing Flipper as a major influence and fans were paying attention. But in typical fashion, disaster struck when new bassist John Dougherty also OD’d and, during the ensuing hiatus, singer Bruce Loose suffered severe injuries in a bizarre tractor accident. This time it really did seem that the band would not return, but you can never keep a good fish down...
In 2005, they reunited to play two dates at CBGB’s, as part of the Campaign to keep the club open, and then the following year they were announced as one of the guests playing at the All Tomorrows Parties festival in the UK. They also took the opportunity to play a short tour and, still lacking a permanent bass player, they were joined by former Nirvana bassist Krist Novoselic. This line-up would also go on release a new studio album ‘Love’ as well as another excellent live LP, ‘Fight’. Novoselic eventually left due to his other commitments, byt was soon replaced by Rachel Thoele, formerly of Frightwig, and they continued to tour sporadically until Bruce’s physical health prevented him from performing any further. Again, it seemed that the band might be over, but a chance meeting in Los Angeles led to former Jesus Lizard / Scratch Acid frontman David Yow being invited to join the band and that brings us up to date, with the band embarking on a European tour to celebrate their 40th Anniversary. Rachel was unable to play these particular dates, so bass duties are currently being handled by Mike Watt, another old fan of the band. As the performances have proven, this may only be 50% of the original Flipper, but the choice of replacements is truly inspired and the music sounds as great as ever !
I tracked-down the rest of their singles and their two classic albums (‘Generic’ and ‘Gone Fishin’) over the next year or so and continued to be impressed. They played Punk Rock, but it didn’t sound like any Punk Rock you’d ever heard before. The music was rhythm-based and repetitive while the guitar-sound whipped-up a chaotic wall of noise and the lyrics could switch from the minimal to the poetical, but there was also always a twisted sense of humour at play. You never really knew what the next song was going to sound like and that was so exciting.
Back then, before the internet, you would only find occasional information about the band in imported magazines like ‘Maximum Rock’n’Roll’, but I kept my fingers-crossed that they would eventually make it over for a UK tour. Unfortunately, the news that did eventually filter through was not what I wanted to hear. Singer / bassist Will Shatter died from an OD at the end of 1987 and, for all intent and purpose, the band was no more.
However, three years later a new single unexpectedly-emerged on Subterranean Records, heralding their return. Again, little information was available but a new live album ‘Nurnberg Fish Trials’ was released in 1991 and the following it was announced that a new studio album, ‘American Grafishy’, was going to be released on Rick Rubins’ Def American label and would also have a UK release ! Shortly after, I found out that drummer Steve De Pace and guitarist Ted Falconi were going to be in London for interviews and that’s how I finally got to meet them. They proved to be really cool people and I’ve remained friends with them ever since. At the time, I was releasing 7” singles with each fanzine and Steve offered me a track to release, a remix of ‘Sex Bomb’ by his friend, The Crack Emcee. It bore very little resemblance to the original version, but in the true spirit of Flipper, it was a lot of fun !
Flipper finally played in the UK during 1993, including a particularly chaotic date at Camden Underworld when they were supported by The Muffs. Things seemed to be going well them, as many of the bands involved in the new Grunge scene (Nirvana, Melvins, Mudhoney) were citing Flipper as a major influence and fans were paying attention. But in typical fashion, disaster struck when new bassist John Dougherty also OD’d and, during the ensuing hiatus, singer Bruce Loose suffered severe injuries in a bizarre tractor accident. This time it really did seem that the band would not return, but you can never keep a good fish down...
In 2005, they reunited to play two dates at CBGB’s, as part of the Campaign to keep the club open, and then the following year they were announced as one of the guests playing at the All Tomorrows Parties festival in the UK. They also took the opportunity to play a short tour and, still lacking a permanent bass player, they were joined by former Nirvana bassist Krist Novoselic. This line-up would also go on release a new studio album ‘Love’ as well as another excellent live LP, ‘Fight’. Novoselic eventually left due to his other commitments, byt was soon replaced by Rachel Thoele, formerly of Frightwig, and they continued to tour sporadically until Bruce’s physical health prevented him from performing any further. Again, it seemed that the band might be over, but a chance meeting in Los Angeles led to former Jesus Lizard / Scratch Acid frontman David Yow being invited to join the band and that brings us up to date, with the band embarking on a European tour to celebrate their 40th Anniversary. Rachel was unable to play these particular dates, so bass duties are currently being handled by Mike Watt, another old fan of the band. As the performances have proven, this may only be 50% of the original Flipper, but the choice of replacements is truly inspired and the music sounds as great as ever !
Having watched their soundcheck at The Garage, I (easily) persuade Steve to accompany me to a nearby pub and we soon get down to the interview business...
Prior to Flipper, you were in Negative Trend alongside Will Shatter. Had you played in any other bands before then ?
‘This is funny, because I just had this same discussion with Mike Watt the other day. He was asking about how I got started playing drums and all that… But I hadn’t really been in any proper bands before Negative Trend… it was just me playing in my bedroom or the garage. I’d put headphones on so I could listen to records and try to play along. I started getting a bit more confident and there was a thing in San Francisco at the time, called the Musicians Network. It was basically a small office and musicians could go there and register themselves, so that other musicians could come along and look them up if they needed someone else to play with. I put myself down as a drummer, so I would call other people who sounded interesting, or they would call me and I’d get them to come over and we’d play in the garage. But it was never a band as such, it was just a way that I could get to play along with other people. We were just jamming and playing cover songs and I guess that’s how a lot of people get started. It wasn’t until I started going to the Mabuhay in 1977 that I discovered the Punk music scene. I started going to see shows there and I loved the bands I was seeing. The idea of joining a band became a real notion because I saw others getting up and playing and realised, I could do this as well. It was accessible… the stage was only two feet off the ground and the bands were right there in front of you. I could reach out and touch them if I wanted to, or I could talk to them after the show. I went to see The Avengers there one night and I spoke to Jimmy Wilsey after they played. I asked how I could go about getting into a band and he told me to go to a local record shop, Aquarius. They had a bulletin board where you could pin a note saying what you wanted to do, so I went there and put-up a notice saying, ‘Drummer looking for Punk band’. And it was just a few days later that I got a call from Will Shatter. He told me that he was in Negative Trend and as it happened, I’d already seen them play and thought they were amazing. Then he said that their singer had quit and they’d fired the drummer, so they were auditioning for new singers and drummers. I went along to the auditions and I got the drummer-gig. The funny thing was that I didn’t look ‘punk rock’ at all, but I suppose I gradually got into it a bit…’
Prior to Flipper, you were in Negative Trend alongside Will Shatter. Had you played in any other bands before then ?
‘This is funny, because I just had this same discussion with Mike Watt the other day. He was asking about how I got started playing drums and all that… But I hadn’t really been in any proper bands before Negative Trend… it was just me playing in my bedroom or the garage. I’d put headphones on so I could listen to records and try to play along. I started getting a bit more confident and there was a thing in San Francisco at the time, called the Musicians Network. It was basically a small office and musicians could go there and register themselves, so that other musicians could come along and look them up if they needed someone else to play with. I put myself down as a drummer, so I would call other people who sounded interesting, or they would call me and I’d get them to come over and we’d play in the garage. But it was never a band as such, it was just a way that I could get to play along with other people. We were just jamming and playing cover songs and I guess that’s how a lot of people get started. It wasn’t until I started going to the Mabuhay in 1977 that I discovered the Punk music scene. I started going to see shows there and I loved the bands I was seeing. The idea of joining a band became a real notion because I saw others getting up and playing and realised, I could do this as well. It was accessible… the stage was only two feet off the ground and the bands were right there in front of you. I could reach out and touch them if I wanted to, or I could talk to them after the show. I went to see The Avengers there one night and I spoke to Jimmy Wilsey after they played. I asked how I could go about getting into a band and he told me to go to a local record shop, Aquarius. They had a bulletin board where you could pin a note saying what you wanted to do, so I went there and put-up a notice saying, ‘Drummer looking for Punk band’. And it was just a few days later that I got a call from Will Shatter. He told me that he was in Negative Trend and as it happened, I’d already seen them play and thought they were amazing. Then he said that their singer had quit and they’d fired the drummer, so they were auditioning for new singers and drummers. I went along to the auditions and I got the drummer-gig. The funny thing was that I didn’t look ‘punk rock’ at all, but I suppose I gradually got into it a bit…’
At that point, the punk scene in San Francisco was still pretty small… what other music were you listening to at the time ?
‘I don’t really know… the music industry in San Francisco was pretty-much run by a guy called Bill Graham, who was the big concert promoter. He made sure there was a lot of music coming through San Francisco, plus there were already a lot of groups based there... Quite a lot had been going since the Sixties. I guess when I was going to High School, we were all listening to the Rolling Stones, The Who, that sort of thing. The British Invasion bands, the Beatles… The first music I really got in to was the Sixties ‘Bubblegum’ pop that I used to hear on the radio, just because it was so catchy. But then I heard The Beatles and I loved them until, a while after that, somebody told me about the FM Radio stations which played cooler music. AM radio was really all of the Pop stuff, while the FM stations were more like ‘Album-Oriented-Rock’, with the long jams and the more underground stuff. At the time, that was the really cool stuff. Then in the early Seventies, the Southern Rock thing happened and I was checking that out until one evening, I was watching the show ‘Sixty Minutes’ on TV and they had a story about the Sex Pistols. That was how I heard them, and I loved their sound and their groove and the drums… I really thought they were cool ! And right about the same time, I heard about the Mabuhay and started going to see shows there, sometime during 1977. Then of course, the Sex Pistols came to play Winterland in San Francisco, early in ’78, and I went to that show. It was pretty-much after that when I decided that I really wanted to get in to a band. I’d just been playing drums in the garage, but then I started putting it all together and decided that I wanted to get in to a band and play Punk Rock. Soon after that was when I talked to Jimmy at that Avengers show and that led on to m joining Negative Trend.’
Negative Trend only lasted a short time, but did release the one EP which had quite an impact on the early Punk scene…
‘Well, there were three versions of Negative Trend and I was in the middle version, which released that EP. That version probably only lasted six months or so, but the EP made a real impression because copies made their way right across the country. Henry Rollins told me that he bought a copy in Washington DC and really loved it, so it did have an influence in places where we hadn’t even played. I think we made a thousand copies of it and it seems a lot of them went to other places around the country.’
‘I don’t really know… the music industry in San Francisco was pretty-much run by a guy called Bill Graham, who was the big concert promoter. He made sure there was a lot of music coming through San Francisco, plus there were already a lot of groups based there... Quite a lot had been going since the Sixties. I guess when I was going to High School, we were all listening to the Rolling Stones, The Who, that sort of thing. The British Invasion bands, the Beatles… The first music I really got in to was the Sixties ‘Bubblegum’ pop that I used to hear on the radio, just because it was so catchy. But then I heard The Beatles and I loved them until, a while after that, somebody told me about the FM Radio stations which played cooler music. AM radio was really all of the Pop stuff, while the FM stations were more like ‘Album-Oriented-Rock’, with the long jams and the more underground stuff. At the time, that was the really cool stuff. Then in the early Seventies, the Southern Rock thing happened and I was checking that out until one evening, I was watching the show ‘Sixty Minutes’ on TV and they had a story about the Sex Pistols. That was how I heard them, and I loved their sound and their groove and the drums… I really thought they were cool ! And right about the same time, I heard about the Mabuhay and started going to see shows there, sometime during 1977. Then of course, the Sex Pistols came to play Winterland in San Francisco, early in ’78, and I went to that show. It was pretty-much after that when I decided that I really wanted to get in to a band. I’d just been playing drums in the garage, but then I started putting it all together and decided that I wanted to get in to a band and play Punk Rock. Soon after that was when I talked to Jimmy at that Avengers show and that led on to m joining Negative Trend.’
Negative Trend only lasted a short time, but did release the one EP which had quite an impact on the early Punk scene…
‘Well, there were three versions of Negative Trend and I was in the middle version, which released that EP. That version probably only lasted six months or so, but the EP made a real impression because copies made their way right across the country. Henry Rollins told me that he bought a copy in Washington DC and really loved it, so it did have an influence in places where we hadn’t even played. I think we made a thousand copies of it and it seems a lot of them went to other places around the country.’
When that version of Negative Trend split-up, did you and Will immediately become part of Flipper ?
‘No… Negative Trend was basically Craig Gray, the guitarist. It was his band, he wrote the songs and some of the lyrics, maybe even all of them… He was the boss and Will was just sort of attached to him. Craig and Will were in all three versions… the first version had Rozz Rezabek on vocals and that was the line-up that I’d seen at the Mabuhay. But he left because he was moving to Portland, where he formed a band called Theatre of Sheep. He was a great performer, though. He was very tall and skinny and when I saw them at the Mab it made a big impression on me. He did something that I’d never seen anyone do before… it was a week-night so there weren’t very many people there and during the week they’d have these little round tables and chairs set-up on the dance-floor, with little baskets of popcorn on each table. Negative Trend went onstage and some of us are sitting at the tables watching them, while there are other people back at the bar who had just got off work and just came in for a beer or whatever. The band come out and Rozz is wearing these little knee-pads. He started climbing-up on the PA speakers and then jumping off and landing on his knees and stuff ! He was all over the place, like Iggy Pop or something. Anyway, after a couple of songs, he comes off the stage and goes up to a table just behind me. He goes to the guy who’s sitting there and grabs him by the collar, pulling him off his chair. Then he picked up the chair and smashes it over the table ! As soon as he’s done this, he goes and does it to somebody else ! I think his idea was that he wanted everyone to come and stand-up at the front, but people were just getting freaked-out. I was watching this and thinking two things, simultaneously… firstly, that this was one of the most amazing things that I’d ever seen and, secondly, that this band weren’t going to get paid that night ! It was only a few weeks after that when I got the call from Will Shatter and I got in to the new version of the band. They found a new singer called Mikal Waters, who I thought was really good, and we went on to cut that EP and play a little North-West tour… in fact, we even played one show in Rozz’s basement in Portland, which was just a little concrete box, underground… it was so hot in there, but he crammed so many people in to see us. We also played in Seattle with The Dils and Vancouver with DOA, so that was a pretty cool little tour. But the rest of our shows were just in and around San Francisco. I thought everything was going great but then, and I still don’t know why, Craig decided to break-up the band. I asked Will about it and he just said, ‘I don’t know, but every so often, Craig likes to clean-house and start over again…’ I was never told any real reason, but then I heard that they were going to carry-on with Rik L Rik, who had been in a band called ‘F-Word’, as the new singer and another drummer, Tim Mooney. I think they recorded some tracks for the Posh Boy label but they finally split-up before anything got released…’
How did Flipper come together after that ?
‘I think Will was the first to leave that version of Negative trend and then Rik left soon after while Craig and Tim went on to form the Toiling Midgets. I think Will had finally had enough of playing with Craig, because every time they started getting somewhere Craig would break it up and have other people come-in. Plus, he was fed-up that Craig was always telling him what to play and how to play it, so he quit and somehow hooked-up with Ted. I think Negative Trend had played with a band that Ted was in… he’d been in a couple of bands, one was called ‘Rad Command’ and another was called ‘SST’. So, Will and Ted decided to play together and they got hold of Ricky Williams, who had been the singer in The Sleepers. He had been a great singer and a great frontman in The Sleepers, but they’d split-up after their first EP, before reforming a few years later. So I was the last to join the new band… I think I bumped into Ted at a party and he asked if I wanted to come down and check-out this new band he was doing with Will and Ricky. I went down to check them out and ended-up joining them. That was the birth of Flipper.’
‘No… Negative Trend was basically Craig Gray, the guitarist. It was his band, he wrote the songs and some of the lyrics, maybe even all of them… He was the boss and Will was just sort of attached to him. Craig and Will were in all three versions… the first version had Rozz Rezabek on vocals and that was the line-up that I’d seen at the Mabuhay. But he left because he was moving to Portland, where he formed a band called Theatre of Sheep. He was a great performer, though. He was very tall and skinny and when I saw them at the Mab it made a big impression on me. He did something that I’d never seen anyone do before… it was a week-night so there weren’t very many people there and during the week they’d have these little round tables and chairs set-up on the dance-floor, with little baskets of popcorn on each table. Negative Trend went onstage and some of us are sitting at the tables watching them, while there are other people back at the bar who had just got off work and just came in for a beer or whatever. The band come out and Rozz is wearing these little knee-pads. He started climbing-up on the PA speakers and then jumping off and landing on his knees and stuff ! He was all over the place, like Iggy Pop or something. Anyway, after a couple of songs, he comes off the stage and goes up to a table just behind me. He goes to the guy who’s sitting there and grabs him by the collar, pulling him off his chair. Then he picked up the chair and smashes it over the table ! As soon as he’s done this, he goes and does it to somebody else ! I think his idea was that he wanted everyone to come and stand-up at the front, but people were just getting freaked-out. I was watching this and thinking two things, simultaneously… firstly, that this was one of the most amazing things that I’d ever seen and, secondly, that this band weren’t going to get paid that night ! It was only a few weeks after that when I got the call from Will Shatter and I got in to the new version of the band. They found a new singer called Mikal Waters, who I thought was really good, and we went on to cut that EP and play a little North-West tour… in fact, we even played one show in Rozz’s basement in Portland, which was just a little concrete box, underground… it was so hot in there, but he crammed so many people in to see us. We also played in Seattle with The Dils and Vancouver with DOA, so that was a pretty cool little tour. But the rest of our shows were just in and around San Francisco. I thought everything was going great but then, and I still don’t know why, Craig decided to break-up the band. I asked Will about it and he just said, ‘I don’t know, but every so often, Craig likes to clean-house and start over again…’ I was never told any real reason, but then I heard that they were going to carry-on with Rik L Rik, who had been in a band called ‘F-Word’, as the new singer and another drummer, Tim Mooney. I think they recorded some tracks for the Posh Boy label but they finally split-up before anything got released…’
How did Flipper come together after that ?
‘I think Will was the first to leave that version of Negative trend and then Rik left soon after while Craig and Tim went on to form the Toiling Midgets. I think Will had finally had enough of playing with Craig, because every time they started getting somewhere Craig would break it up and have other people come-in. Plus, he was fed-up that Craig was always telling him what to play and how to play it, so he quit and somehow hooked-up with Ted. I think Negative Trend had played with a band that Ted was in… he’d been in a couple of bands, one was called ‘Rad Command’ and another was called ‘SST’. So, Will and Ted decided to play together and they got hold of Ricky Williams, who had been the singer in The Sleepers. He had been a great singer and a great frontman in The Sleepers, but they’d split-up after their first EP, before reforming a few years later. So I was the last to join the new band… I think I bumped into Ted at a party and he asked if I wanted to come down and check-out this new band he was doing with Will and Ricky. I went down to check them out and ended-up joining them. That was the birth of Flipper.’
Legend has it that the bands’ name was originally Ricky’s suggestion…
‘My recollection of it is that we’d been writing songs and rehearsing for a while and everything was feeling good. Then one night, I remember Will turning around and saying, ‘Everything seems to be going well… we’re going to need a name…’ There was a pause while we were all thinking about this and then, before anyone else said anything, Ricky said, ‘How about Flipper ?’ We all thought that was cool and said okay, but then I found out some time afterwards that Ricky had a bunch of pets, cats and dogs and birds and goldfish, and they were all named ‘Flipper’. It was the only name he could remember, so he named everything ‘Flipper’ ! I guess he thought the band might as well be ‘Flipper’ as well, so he could remember the name.’
But Ricky didn’t last very long in the band and was eventually replaced by Bruce Loose…
‘Well, initially it lasted about six months, but Ricky was a drug addict and he’d be unconscious more than he was conscious. He was always asleep. He had two girls who were, like, his handlers… one under each arm helping him walk when he got too fucked-up or just passed-out. They would carry him, walk him or move him from place to place. But eventually, a couple of things happened. We were playing with ‘X’ and I think it may have been the first time they came to San Francisco. Ricky used to do this thing when he wasn’t too fucked up, which looked pretty great but it was actually pretty dangerous. He used to take the microphone stand, you know the ones with those solid round bases, and he’d spin it around his head. Well, one night he did this but the stage was pretty small and he hit Will right between the eyes. He had a scar on his face for the rest of his life ! That was one thing that wasn’t very cool, and then we were having problems because he’d always be late for rehearsals or he’d turn-up and just pass-out. So, on one occasion, I told the girls he was with that we had the next rehearsal the following night at 7.00pm and that if he didn’t show-up on time, he’d be fired. The next night I was waiting at the loading-doors to see if he was going to show-up, and at 7.00pm sharp, the car pulls up, the girls get-out and go to the back doors. Ricky was on the back-seat but unconscious ! They pull him out and carry him to the doors, but he’s asleep ! They’re trying to tell me that we can’t fire him because he’d made it on time, so we put him on a trolley, rolled him into the rehearsal room and dumped him on the floor. Someone grabbed a microphone and put it in front of his mouth, so you could hear him snoring over the PA ! We just sat that and laughed, but then we told the girls that he was here on time but he’s unconscious, so he’s still useless. And that was the end of that…’
You soon found a replacement in Bruce Loose… did you already know him ?
‘Bruce had already been around, but he had been chasing some girl and had also moved up to Portland. That’s why we had Ricky in the band in the first place… But in between times, Bruce had come back and was hanging around again, so when we fired Ricky, Bruce was the obvious choice. But I don’t know exactly how he got in to the band… I think Will already knew him, or maybe Ted knew him ? I don’t remember exactly, but all of a sudden, he was in the band.’
‘My recollection of it is that we’d been writing songs and rehearsing for a while and everything was feeling good. Then one night, I remember Will turning around and saying, ‘Everything seems to be going well… we’re going to need a name…’ There was a pause while we were all thinking about this and then, before anyone else said anything, Ricky said, ‘How about Flipper ?’ We all thought that was cool and said okay, but then I found out some time afterwards that Ricky had a bunch of pets, cats and dogs and birds and goldfish, and they were all named ‘Flipper’. It was the only name he could remember, so he named everything ‘Flipper’ ! I guess he thought the band might as well be ‘Flipper’ as well, so he could remember the name.’
But Ricky didn’t last very long in the band and was eventually replaced by Bruce Loose…
‘Well, initially it lasted about six months, but Ricky was a drug addict and he’d be unconscious more than he was conscious. He was always asleep. He had two girls who were, like, his handlers… one under each arm helping him walk when he got too fucked-up or just passed-out. They would carry him, walk him or move him from place to place. But eventually, a couple of things happened. We were playing with ‘X’ and I think it may have been the first time they came to San Francisco. Ricky used to do this thing when he wasn’t too fucked up, which looked pretty great but it was actually pretty dangerous. He used to take the microphone stand, you know the ones with those solid round bases, and he’d spin it around his head. Well, one night he did this but the stage was pretty small and he hit Will right between the eyes. He had a scar on his face for the rest of his life ! That was one thing that wasn’t very cool, and then we were having problems because he’d always be late for rehearsals or he’d turn-up and just pass-out. So, on one occasion, I told the girls he was with that we had the next rehearsal the following night at 7.00pm and that if he didn’t show-up on time, he’d be fired. The next night I was waiting at the loading-doors to see if he was going to show-up, and at 7.00pm sharp, the car pulls up, the girls get-out and go to the back doors. Ricky was on the back-seat but unconscious ! They pull him out and carry him to the doors, but he’s asleep ! They’re trying to tell me that we can’t fire him because he’d made it on time, so we put him on a trolley, rolled him into the rehearsal room and dumped him on the floor. Someone grabbed a microphone and put it in front of his mouth, so you could hear him snoring over the PA ! We just sat that and laughed, but then we told the girls that he was here on time but he’s unconscious, so he’s still useless. And that was the end of that…’
You soon found a replacement in Bruce Loose… did you already know him ?
‘Bruce had already been around, but he had been chasing some girl and had also moved up to Portland. That’s why we had Ricky in the band in the first place… But in between times, Bruce had come back and was hanging around again, so when we fired Ricky, Bruce was the obvious choice. But I don’t know exactly how he got in to the band… I think Will already knew him, or maybe Ted knew him ? I don’t remember exactly, but all of a sudden, he was in the band.’
Right from the very early days, Flipper may have been considered a ‘Punk’ band but the sound was very distinct from all the other bands of the time. Even the very first release (the track ‘Earthworm’ on the SF Underground EP in 1979) was completely different to the other bands on the record… What kind of response did you get when audiences first heard the band ?
‘The response was good, really great. I don’t remember how we wrote ‘Earthworm’, but I remember recording it and thinking, this is a weird song ! I loved it… We were all still learning how to play at that time, so we were just coming up with things that sounded interesting. I don’t think any of us really knew how to play properly… Ted had experience with other instruments but not necessarily with guitar, even though he had played in a couple of other bands for a short time. He’d just been playing straight-ahead stuff with those other bands and then suddenly he was making up this whole new noisy style he has with Flipper…. I don’t know where that came from ! ‘Earthworm’ came out on the ‘SF Undergound’ EP, alongside three other weird bands… You see, the San Francisco scene was pretty different to other cities as it was a real Art-town. And it was Art of all types, so in the late Seventies when the Punk scene was developing, it was natural for it to be very eclectic. All of the bands were very different and everybody was trying to have their own sound. Artists of all types began to get involved… one guy started documenting the bands with his video camera, and that was Joe Rees who eventually started Target Video. There were guys involved who wanted to make films, and there were writers, poets, everything. They all gravitated towards the Punk scene because that was the new thing and where all the energy was happening. So there was never any thought of one band trying to sound like another band and everybody wanted to have their own, unique style. In that way, we were just the same as everyone else in the San Francisco scene. It wasn’t until Hardcore became the new thing that a lot of bands started sounding pretty-much the same. They seemed to think that everyone had to look the same and sound the same, which I just didn’t get, although it just made Flipper stand out even more. We’d started out in 1979 so we were really at the tail-end of the original Punk scene, but just ahead of the Hardcore scene which kicked-in around 1980. We didn’t really start touring properly until about 1982 and by then, everything else seemed to be Hardcore, especially on the East Coast. But we became really popular on the East Coast and we’d headline big shows. We were still doing what we did while everyone else was trying to be super-fast… I mean, the early hardcore bands, like Black Flag or Dead Kennedys or Minor Threat, they’d started out doing their own thing so they’d really appreciated what we were doing as well. The problem was all the bands that came along after them who just wanted to do the same thing. But we tended to get along with everyone… the only thing was that Bruce was a junkie at the time, so he’d sometimes steal stuff. There was a band called Scornflakes from the East Coast and we played a gig with them at CBGB’s. After the show, Bruce stole a couple of their things to go and sell for dope money and they knew it had to be one of us because there were only two bands playing that night ! So they really weren’t happy with us, even though the rest of us had nothing to do with it.’
Flipper did get a reputation for being really chaotic and fucked-up, but you did play some pretty extensive tours at a time before the touring circuit was really established in the States. If the band really had been as fucked-up as some people like to suggest, you just wouldn’t have completed those tours…
‘We always got through everything. I mean, there could be a lot of chaos when we played and, in a lot of ways, that’s what attracted a lot of the Hardcore kids to come and see us. They weren’t getting into us because we were a slam-dance band, but there was something that they liked about it and I think it was the aspect that there was always some sort of chaos involved. Our shows were always unpredictable, but they were always very cool and a lot of fun. They weren’t violent, but you never knew what was going to happen next. Rick Rubin said to me, later on, that we were dangerous… we had some sort of air of danger when we played, so maybe that’s what the Hardcore kids liked about it. It was probably something that Bruce used to do, antagonising the audience and getting them riled- up. He’d talk shit to them about whatever, you know, ‘Fuck your town, fuck your beer, fuck your food…’ Some people really got into it and others really got upset, but it always got a reaction… Although, I have to say, after a few years it got pretty tiresome for the rest of us, like, ‘C’mon, change the act…’ ‘
‘The response was good, really great. I don’t remember how we wrote ‘Earthworm’, but I remember recording it and thinking, this is a weird song ! I loved it… We were all still learning how to play at that time, so we were just coming up with things that sounded interesting. I don’t think any of us really knew how to play properly… Ted had experience with other instruments but not necessarily with guitar, even though he had played in a couple of other bands for a short time. He’d just been playing straight-ahead stuff with those other bands and then suddenly he was making up this whole new noisy style he has with Flipper…. I don’t know where that came from ! ‘Earthworm’ came out on the ‘SF Undergound’ EP, alongside three other weird bands… You see, the San Francisco scene was pretty different to other cities as it was a real Art-town. And it was Art of all types, so in the late Seventies when the Punk scene was developing, it was natural for it to be very eclectic. All of the bands were very different and everybody was trying to have their own sound. Artists of all types began to get involved… one guy started documenting the bands with his video camera, and that was Joe Rees who eventually started Target Video. There were guys involved who wanted to make films, and there were writers, poets, everything. They all gravitated towards the Punk scene because that was the new thing and where all the energy was happening. So there was never any thought of one band trying to sound like another band and everybody wanted to have their own, unique style. In that way, we were just the same as everyone else in the San Francisco scene. It wasn’t until Hardcore became the new thing that a lot of bands started sounding pretty-much the same. They seemed to think that everyone had to look the same and sound the same, which I just didn’t get, although it just made Flipper stand out even more. We’d started out in 1979 so we were really at the tail-end of the original Punk scene, but just ahead of the Hardcore scene which kicked-in around 1980. We didn’t really start touring properly until about 1982 and by then, everything else seemed to be Hardcore, especially on the East Coast. But we became really popular on the East Coast and we’d headline big shows. We were still doing what we did while everyone else was trying to be super-fast… I mean, the early hardcore bands, like Black Flag or Dead Kennedys or Minor Threat, they’d started out doing their own thing so they’d really appreciated what we were doing as well. The problem was all the bands that came along after them who just wanted to do the same thing. But we tended to get along with everyone… the only thing was that Bruce was a junkie at the time, so he’d sometimes steal stuff. There was a band called Scornflakes from the East Coast and we played a gig with them at CBGB’s. After the show, Bruce stole a couple of their things to go and sell for dope money and they knew it had to be one of us because there were only two bands playing that night ! So they really weren’t happy with us, even though the rest of us had nothing to do with it.’
Flipper did get a reputation for being really chaotic and fucked-up, but you did play some pretty extensive tours at a time before the touring circuit was really established in the States. If the band really had been as fucked-up as some people like to suggest, you just wouldn’t have completed those tours…
‘We always got through everything. I mean, there could be a lot of chaos when we played and, in a lot of ways, that’s what attracted a lot of the Hardcore kids to come and see us. They weren’t getting into us because we were a slam-dance band, but there was something that they liked about it and I think it was the aspect that there was always some sort of chaos involved. Our shows were always unpredictable, but they were always very cool and a lot of fun. They weren’t violent, but you never knew what was going to happen next. Rick Rubin said to me, later on, that we were dangerous… we had some sort of air of danger when we played, so maybe that’s what the Hardcore kids liked about it. It was probably something that Bruce used to do, antagonising the audience and getting them riled- up. He’d talk shit to them about whatever, you know, ‘Fuck your town, fuck your beer, fuck your food…’ Some people really got into it and others really got upset, but it always got a reaction… Although, I have to say, after a few years it got pretty tiresome for the rest of us, like, ‘C’mon, change the act…’ ‘
Although you did all write a song called ‘There’s No Place As Bad As Southern California’…
‘Oh yeah… well, Will Shatter hated LA. We were on tour and we were almost back home but we had one last show in LA. We actually had a couple of days in LA and Will wanted to write a song about Southern California, so we rented a rehearsal studio for a few hours and wrote that song, just so we could play it at that show. Of course, it eventually ended-up on the live album so everyone heard it. But I always used to have a blast in LA, I never had a problem with the place.’
Flipper were involved with a movie called ‘Emerald Cities’ in 1983. Not only did they appear playing live, but Ted had an acting role…
‘Yes, but Ted was never an actor. The thing was, as I said, there were all of these other people hanging around the Punk scene, you know, film-makers and artists… One of these people was a film-maker, probably just out of college, and he already knew Ted as he’d studied Art at Berkeley University and had also taught at different colleges. One of the people Ted knew from college was Joe Rees, who founded Target Video, and another was Rick Schmidt, who went on to become this film-maker. Anyway, he asked Ted to help him with some of the writing for the script and also asked him to act in it. There’s also some live scenes, featuring Flipper and the Mutants. I’ve always thought the film was great… the gist of it is that Santa Claus gets murdered, he gets shot in San Francisco and then there’s all of this other stuff that happens. Ted’s character pulls into a gas station in the middle of the desert, and there’s a girl and her father living in a trailer there, running the station. The girl can’t wait to get out from there… so Ted pulls in to the gas station and he’s actually driving his own car, an old red Pinto station-wagon which we used to use to transport our equipment around. The girl is looking out of her window and she sees this guy and decides to run-off with him. She wants to go to San Francisco, which is the closest big city, and become a star. Anyway, the father sees her daughter getting into the car and driving off, so he tries to run after the car. Obviously, he doesn’t catch it, so he decides to make his way to San Francisco to find them… and along the way, there’s all of this other odd stuff that happens.’
The two albums you released in the early Eighties, ‘Generic’ and ‘Gone Fishin’’, both got a good response from fans and critics, but it seemed as if, as things moved-on, the band were becoming more volatile…
‘There were a few long hiatus along the way, often when Will or Bruce didn’t want to do anything. But in 1987, we toured again to support the live album which had just come out. Unfortunately, it was shortly after our homecoming show at the I-Beam in San Francisco, that Will died… maybe a month or two after that.’
I know he recorded an album under the name ‘A3I’ (‘Any Three Initials’) shortly before he died. Was that around the same time as that last tour ?
‘I think it must have been during the hiatus before we went on that tour. But I don’t think that record ever came out… There were some test pressings made, but for whatever reason, Subterranean never actually pressed it up and released it… Probably when he realised Will wouldn’t be around to promote it.’
‘Oh yeah… well, Will Shatter hated LA. We were on tour and we were almost back home but we had one last show in LA. We actually had a couple of days in LA and Will wanted to write a song about Southern California, so we rented a rehearsal studio for a few hours and wrote that song, just so we could play it at that show. Of course, it eventually ended-up on the live album so everyone heard it. But I always used to have a blast in LA, I never had a problem with the place.’
Flipper were involved with a movie called ‘Emerald Cities’ in 1983. Not only did they appear playing live, but Ted had an acting role…
‘Yes, but Ted was never an actor. The thing was, as I said, there were all of these other people hanging around the Punk scene, you know, film-makers and artists… One of these people was a film-maker, probably just out of college, and he already knew Ted as he’d studied Art at Berkeley University and had also taught at different colleges. One of the people Ted knew from college was Joe Rees, who founded Target Video, and another was Rick Schmidt, who went on to become this film-maker. Anyway, he asked Ted to help him with some of the writing for the script and also asked him to act in it. There’s also some live scenes, featuring Flipper and the Mutants. I’ve always thought the film was great… the gist of it is that Santa Claus gets murdered, he gets shot in San Francisco and then there’s all of this other stuff that happens. Ted’s character pulls into a gas station in the middle of the desert, and there’s a girl and her father living in a trailer there, running the station. The girl can’t wait to get out from there… so Ted pulls in to the gas station and he’s actually driving his own car, an old red Pinto station-wagon which we used to use to transport our equipment around. The girl is looking out of her window and she sees this guy and decides to run-off with him. She wants to go to San Francisco, which is the closest big city, and become a star. Anyway, the father sees her daughter getting into the car and driving off, so he tries to run after the car. Obviously, he doesn’t catch it, so he decides to make his way to San Francisco to find them… and along the way, there’s all of this other odd stuff that happens.’
The two albums you released in the early Eighties, ‘Generic’ and ‘Gone Fishin’’, both got a good response from fans and critics, but it seemed as if, as things moved-on, the band were becoming more volatile…
‘There were a few long hiatus along the way, often when Will or Bruce didn’t want to do anything. But in 1987, we toured again to support the live album which had just come out. Unfortunately, it was shortly after our homecoming show at the I-Beam in San Francisco, that Will died… maybe a month or two after that.’
I know he recorded an album under the name ‘A3I’ (‘Any Three Initials’) shortly before he died. Was that around the same time as that last tour ?
‘I think it must have been during the hiatus before we went on that tour. But I don’t think that record ever came out… There were some test pressings made, but for whatever reason, Subterranean never actually pressed it up and released it… Probably when he realised Will wouldn’t be around to promote it.’
It’s been claimed by the musician Moby that, at some time in the mid-Eighties, he joined Flipper as your singer for a few days, supposedly while Bruce was in jail. I know the band have always denied this story…
‘I think, at most, he may have been handed, or grabbed, the microphone at one of the shows and yelled into it. But that happened a lot, particularly when Bruce was drunk, so claiming that he actually joined Flipper is stretching things quite a bit. Supposedly it happened in his home town in Connecticut and he may well have got up and sung one or two songs, probably ‘Sex Bomb’ or something like that. But I’m pretty sure it was nothing more than that.’
Well, it’s kind of like the story he included in his recent biography, saying that he was once dating Natalie Portman. She found out about this and denied that it ever happened… he eventually had to issue an apology…
‘Well, a friend of mine, who was a booking agent in Berlin, called me one day. She had booked Moby to play and was sent a copy of his Bio from the record label and it said in there that he was one of the original singers in Flipper ! This was the official Bio to promote his tour, so she sent me a copy of it so that I could actually see it… I think I’ve still got it somewhere… I can only think that he either likes to embellish things or maybe he was taking too many drugs back then and can’t really remember what happened… But, you know, it’s all good ! It’s the least of the myths and lies and bullshit about Flipper that’s going to bother me.’
After Will died, there was another long gap before Flipper became active again…
‘It wasn’t that long… Will died in December 1987, and Flipper started playing again in 1990. We found this new guy, John Dougherty, who was a friend of Ted. One day, Ted called me up and, by that point, I had no thought of Flipper ever getting back together again. It just didn’t occur to me after Will died. But then Ted called up one day and said he had this buddy who he thought might fit in the band. So I went over to check it out and we reformed with John. But it also changed things because when Bruce and Will were in the band, they’d both played bass, wrote lyrics and sang, so they’d switch over from song-to-song. But when John joined the band, we went back to Bruce being the singer and John playing bass.’
The strange thing was that, in 1990, the Sub Pop scene in Seattle was still in its’ early stages, but by your next album, ‘American Grafishy’ in 1993, the whole Grunge scene had really taken-off and many of the popular bands were crediting Flipper as an influence. So it seemed as if Flipper were suddenly in the right place at the right time…
‘When we re-started Flipper in 1990, we weren’t even aware of the Sub Pop thing. I guess it was still percolating in Seattle and we just hadn’t heard about it. When John joined us, we started playing some gigs and at some point we headed-up to play in Portland and Seattle. I remember pulling into Seattle and we were talking to a journalist and she asked what we thought about the whole ‘grunge’ scene up there. All I could ask was, what’s a grunge scene ? I mean, we’d had reviews when our records came out that called us ‘grungy’, but I didn’t know anything about what was going on in Seattle. That was the first time I’d heard ‘grunge’ being applied to something else…’
‘I think, at most, he may have been handed, or grabbed, the microphone at one of the shows and yelled into it. But that happened a lot, particularly when Bruce was drunk, so claiming that he actually joined Flipper is stretching things quite a bit. Supposedly it happened in his home town in Connecticut and he may well have got up and sung one or two songs, probably ‘Sex Bomb’ or something like that. But I’m pretty sure it was nothing more than that.’
Well, it’s kind of like the story he included in his recent biography, saying that he was once dating Natalie Portman. She found out about this and denied that it ever happened… he eventually had to issue an apology…
‘Well, a friend of mine, who was a booking agent in Berlin, called me one day. She had booked Moby to play and was sent a copy of his Bio from the record label and it said in there that he was one of the original singers in Flipper ! This was the official Bio to promote his tour, so she sent me a copy of it so that I could actually see it… I think I’ve still got it somewhere… I can only think that he either likes to embellish things or maybe he was taking too many drugs back then and can’t really remember what happened… But, you know, it’s all good ! It’s the least of the myths and lies and bullshit about Flipper that’s going to bother me.’
After Will died, there was another long gap before Flipper became active again…
‘It wasn’t that long… Will died in December 1987, and Flipper started playing again in 1990. We found this new guy, John Dougherty, who was a friend of Ted. One day, Ted called me up and, by that point, I had no thought of Flipper ever getting back together again. It just didn’t occur to me after Will died. But then Ted called up one day and said he had this buddy who he thought might fit in the band. So I went over to check it out and we reformed with John. But it also changed things because when Bruce and Will were in the band, they’d both played bass, wrote lyrics and sang, so they’d switch over from song-to-song. But when John joined the band, we went back to Bruce being the singer and John playing bass.’
The strange thing was that, in 1990, the Sub Pop scene in Seattle was still in its’ early stages, but by your next album, ‘American Grafishy’ in 1993, the whole Grunge scene had really taken-off and many of the popular bands were crediting Flipper as an influence. So it seemed as if Flipper were suddenly in the right place at the right time…
‘When we re-started Flipper in 1990, we weren’t even aware of the Sub Pop thing. I guess it was still percolating in Seattle and we just hadn’t heard about it. When John joined us, we started playing some gigs and at some point we headed-up to play in Portland and Seattle. I remember pulling into Seattle and we were talking to a journalist and she asked what we thought about the whole ‘grunge’ scene up there. All I could ask was, what’s a grunge scene ? I mean, we’d had reviews when our records came out that called us ‘grungy’, but I didn’t know anything about what was going on in Seattle. That was the first time I’d heard ‘grunge’ being applied to something else…’
You released a new single on Subterranean, ‘Some Day’ and then got offered a deal with Def American. How did that come about ?
‘Rick Rubin had been a huge fan of Flipper, probably going all the way back to 1980. He’d even had a band called ‘Hose’ who were pretty-much fashioned after Flipper. In about 1982, we were given the opportunity to fly to New York and play two shows, one at the Mudd Club and one at Danceteria. When we played The Mudd Club, Rick’s band were the opening act and, that same night, I was standing outside before we played and there were these kids who weren’t old enough to get in. I started talking to them and it turns out that they were the Beastie Boys ! We were hanging out and they seemed to be cool, so I decided to figure out some way to get them in… It was Winter time so we were all wearing big coats, so I got a couple of the other guys from the band and we sort of got in a huddle, with the Beastie Boys hidden in the middle, cos they were just little kids back then. The guys on the door already knew we were in the band so they’d let us in without checking ID or anything, so we just went in as a group, right through the door, and they weren’t paying too much attention to us so they didn’t notice these kids in the middle of the group ! We just rumbled through the door and they were hiding in the middle of our little crowd, so we got them all in ! Anyway, getting back to Rick… he’d actually started Def Jam while he was still in college as a business-major, just to release the first record by Hose. Of course, soon after that he started putting-out Hip Hop stuff and that’s when he began building up his company. He began working with Russell Simmons and that was when things really took-off, because Russell was a club promoter and when Rick produced a new record Russell would make sure it was getting played in the clubs. It all started to get really successful but he still continued to come and see us every time we played in New York and remained a fan. In the late Eighties, he left New York and Def Jam and moved to LA, where he started Def American and began working with Rock bands like Slayer and Danzig. When we released the ‘Some Day’ single, I had an idea to send him a copy, to let him know that we were back together again. He called me and asked when we would be coming to LA to play, so when we did set-up a show down there, he came to see us and afterwards, he came up and said, let’s meet-up for lunch tomorrow. We met him the next day and he said that he wanted to sign us. We had to get a lawyer to work the deal out for us, but that’s how it happened.’
‘Rick Rubin had been a huge fan of Flipper, probably going all the way back to 1980. He’d even had a band called ‘Hose’ who were pretty-much fashioned after Flipper. In about 1982, we were given the opportunity to fly to New York and play two shows, one at the Mudd Club and one at Danceteria. When we played The Mudd Club, Rick’s band were the opening act and, that same night, I was standing outside before we played and there were these kids who weren’t old enough to get in. I started talking to them and it turns out that they were the Beastie Boys ! We were hanging out and they seemed to be cool, so I decided to figure out some way to get them in… It was Winter time so we were all wearing big coats, so I got a couple of the other guys from the band and we sort of got in a huddle, with the Beastie Boys hidden in the middle, cos they were just little kids back then. The guys on the door already knew we were in the band so they’d let us in without checking ID or anything, so we just went in as a group, right through the door, and they weren’t paying too much attention to us so they didn’t notice these kids in the middle of the group ! We just rumbled through the door and they were hiding in the middle of our little crowd, so we got them all in ! Anyway, getting back to Rick… he’d actually started Def Jam while he was still in college as a business-major, just to release the first record by Hose. Of course, soon after that he started putting-out Hip Hop stuff and that’s when he began building up his company. He began working with Russell Simmons and that was when things really took-off, because Russell was a club promoter and when Rick produced a new record Russell would make sure it was getting played in the clubs. It all started to get really successful but he still continued to come and see us every time we played in New York and remained a fan. In the late Eighties, he left New York and Def Jam and moved to LA, where he started Def American and began working with Rock bands like Slayer and Danzig. When we released the ‘Some Day’ single, I had an idea to send him a copy, to let him know that we were back together again. He called me and asked when we would be coming to LA to play, so when we did set-up a show down there, he came to see us and afterwards, he came up and said, let’s meet-up for lunch tomorrow. We met him the next day and he said that he wanted to sign us. We had to get a lawyer to work the deal out for us, but that’s how it happened.’
‘American Grafishy’, seemed to divide opinion amongst fans. Some really love it but others just didn’t get into it, either because they didn’t like the production or because they objected to the band signing to a bigger label…
‘Well, I’ve always loved it and I really enjoyed that whole period of Flipper. I have some really fond memories of that incarnation of Flipper and that recording session. The album got a proper release in the States and was licensed to Beggars Banquet in Europe, so it had some really good coverage and we were able to come over and play a proper tour all across Europe. And it must have done pretty well as the record company called me to ‘pick up their second option’, which means, they wanted us to make another album for them. That’s one of the things the big labels always put in their contracts … they won’t commit to releasing more than one record, but if they’re satisfied that it’s sold well enough, they have the option of releasing the next one. I think they pressed-up 25,000 copies of ‘American Grafishy’ and they all sold-out, so they were happy with it. The production costs had been relatively cheap, for them anyway, so they hadn’t lost any money and they were happy with it. So they called me before the cut-off date and said they wanted to take the option on another record and that was all set to go ahead. We finished the tour and came back home to San Francisco, but right after that, Bruce went up to his parents home, out in the country, and that’s when he had an accident and wrecked his back. So that kind of ended everything very abruptly. He had a broken back and we couldn’t do anything… Then, a year later, John died and at that point, it just seemed like that was it. We didn’t play again for another ten years. The next show we played wasn’t until 2005, when we were invited to play at CBGB’s as they were running a campaign to try and prevent its’ closure. That was just meant to be a one-off, but of course, once that happened we started to get other offers and began to have our other ideas…’
And that was when you got the hint from some dodgy fanzine-writer (ahem) that Thurston Moore would be curating the upcoming All Tomorrows Parties festival in the UK and that he might be persuaded to include Flipper on the line-up…
‘Yeah, that was in 2006… We’d played CBGB’s in August 2005, with our old friend Bruno DeSmartass on bass, and we played a couple more shows in LA and San Francisco. Then you told me about Thurston working on this festival and I started figuring-out ways to harass him to include us. As it turned out, Sonic Youth were on tour in the States at that time, so I had to figure-out how to get in touch with him. I knew a guy who used to design posters for them, so I gave him a call and it turned out that he was going to see them the next night in Portland. I asked him to tell Thurston that Flipper really wanted to play this festival, so he did that for me and then, a few nights later, they were going to be playing at the Filmore in San Francisco. I knew some people at there so I gave them a call and they sorted out some tickets and passes for me. Me and Ted went to the show and after they played, we got to meet Thurston and said, we’d love to play this ATP festival. He said, Yeah, that’s great, I’d love to have you there… The only problem was that, by that point, Bruno wasn’t able to play any more shows with us and we needed a new bass player. I mentioned that I’d been thinking that Krist Novoselic would be perfect for the job and Thurston said, that’s a great idea, he’d be perfect ! So he said that he’d call him and see if he’d be interested… I still wasn’t sure if he’d be into it, but a few days later he called me and said that he’d love to do it. It was all coming together, but when I started thinking about it, I thought, well, why go over and just play the one festival when we could play a few more shows ? I knew that The Melvins were going to be over there as well and would be playing some other dates so one thing lead to another and we ended up playing a few shows with The Melvins and a few more on our own. We ended up playing all over the UK and Ireland… The nice thing was that, during our set at ATP, Krist had said something in between songs about Flipper and how much we had meant to Nirvana, and then, I think it was at one of the shows in Ireland, The Melvins had played their version of ‘Sacrifice’, but instead of singing the lyrics, Buzz had just started talking about Flipper… he started off by saying, ‘The first time I heard ‘Generic’ I thought it sounded like the soundtrack to the end of the world !’ And then, at the end of the song, he’s still talking to the audience and he tells them, ‘Now, all of you, go out and start your own band and make your own soundtrack for the end of the world !’ It was so great to hear that !’
‘Well, I’ve always loved it and I really enjoyed that whole period of Flipper. I have some really fond memories of that incarnation of Flipper and that recording session. The album got a proper release in the States and was licensed to Beggars Banquet in Europe, so it had some really good coverage and we were able to come over and play a proper tour all across Europe. And it must have done pretty well as the record company called me to ‘pick up their second option’, which means, they wanted us to make another album for them. That’s one of the things the big labels always put in their contracts … they won’t commit to releasing more than one record, but if they’re satisfied that it’s sold well enough, they have the option of releasing the next one. I think they pressed-up 25,000 copies of ‘American Grafishy’ and they all sold-out, so they were happy with it. The production costs had been relatively cheap, for them anyway, so they hadn’t lost any money and they were happy with it. So they called me before the cut-off date and said they wanted to take the option on another record and that was all set to go ahead. We finished the tour and came back home to San Francisco, but right after that, Bruce went up to his parents home, out in the country, and that’s when he had an accident and wrecked his back. So that kind of ended everything very abruptly. He had a broken back and we couldn’t do anything… Then, a year later, John died and at that point, it just seemed like that was it. We didn’t play again for another ten years. The next show we played wasn’t until 2005, when we were invited to play at CBGB’s as they were running a campaign to try and prevent its’ closure. That was just meant to be a one-off, but of course, once that happened we started to get other offers and began to have our other ideas…’
And that was when you got the hint from some dodgy fanzine-writer (ahem) that Thurston Moore would be curating the upcoming All Tomorrows Parties festival in the UK and that he might be persuaded to include Flipper on the line-up…
‘Yeah, that was in 2006… We’d played CBGB’s in August 2005, with our old friend Bruno DeSmartass on bass, and we played a couple more shows in LA and San Francisco. Then you told me about Thurston working on this festival and I started figuring-out ways to harass him to include us. As it turned out, Sonic Youth were on tour in the States at that time, so I had to figure-out how to get in touch with him. I knew a guy who used to design posters for them, so I gave him a call and it turned out that he was going to see them the next night in Portland. I asked him to tell Thurston that Flipper really wanted to play this festival, so he did that for me and then, a few nights later, they were going to be playing at the Filmore in San Francisco. I knew some people at there so I gave them a call and they sorted out some tickets and passes for me. Me and Ted went to the show and after they played, we got to meet Thurston and said, we’d love to play this ATP festival. He said, Yeah, that’s great, I’d love to have you there… The only problem was that, by that point, Bruno wasn’t able to play any more shows with us and we needed a new bass player. I mentioned that I’d been thinking that Krist Novoselic would be perfect for the job and Thurston said, that’s a great idea, he’d be perfect ! So he said that he’d call him and see if he’d be interested… I still wasn’t sure if he’d be into it, but a few days later he called me and said that he’d love to do it. It was all coming together, but when I started thinking about it, I thought, well, why go over and just play the one festival when we could play a few more shows ? I knew that The Melvins were going to be over there as well and would be playing some other dates so one thing lead to another and we ended up playing a few shows with The Melvins and a few more on our own. We ended up playing all over the UK and Ireland… The nice thing was that, during our set at ATP, Krist had said something in between songs about Flipper and how much we had meant to Nirvana, and then, I think it was at one of the shows in Ireland, The Melvins had played their version of ‘Sacrifice’, but instead of singing the lyrics, Buzz had just started talking about Flipper… he started off by saying, ‘The first time I heard ‘Generic’ I thought it sounded like the soundtrack to the end of the world !’ And then, at the end of the song, he’s still talking to the audience and he tells them, ‘Now, all of you, go out and start your own band and make your own soundtrack for the end of the world !’ It was so great to hear that !’
I assume that Krist must have enjoyed playing with you guys, because you continued playing live in America, recorded the ‘Love’ album with him and released the live album, ‘Fight’…
‘Yeah, but the sad thing is that it was an album that people just didn’t seem to pay attention to. I mean, part of that was because we did a deal directly with a distribution company and then they did zero promotion for it. But I am hoping to get it reissued with a different label and this time I’ll make sure that they really push it. But, yeah, I think Krist did enjoy it but, after those records came out, people really wanted us to tour quite extensively. Up until then, we’d only played those shows in the UK and Ireland and a few dates on the West Coast. We were starting to think about setting-up a tour, but one day he called me and said he really didn’t want to do it. I think he’s a bit of a homebody these days and I don’t think he wanted to be away from home for so long. And, to be honest, I think he was also getting a bit sick of Bruce. He just started to get fed-up with Bruce’s shit… Bruce could be very condescending to him, even when we were mixing the album at Jack Endino’s studio, and after nearly two years of that, I can’t blame him for thinking, I don’t need this shit ! I mean, Krist was really cool with us and a really nice guy, but Bruce kept saying a variety of things to him. After two years of that, he was done with it and I don’t think he wanted to go out on a long tour, so that was when he left…’
But you quickly drafted-in Rachel Theole, who had previously been in Frightwig, to play bass and were still able to go out on tour…
‘She was someone we’d all known for a long time, so for us it was no big deal that there was suddenly a woman in the band. Plus she and Bruce were already friends so she knew how to deal with his shit. Actually, I think part of it was that Bruce used to feel as if he didn’t have a friend in the band. Me and Ted always got along well, but then there was Bruce and he was always… you know, whatever ! I think he used to feel he was on his own in the band, so we thought it would be good to bring in Rachel because she could play really well and she was also his friend. We thought that might calm him down and make him more tolerable, because he’d have someone there he got along with. But of course, it didn’t work and it didn’t change him at all. But Rachel was great and we didn’t have any issue with a female being in the band… perhaps a female singer wouldn’t have worked, but she was a great bass player so there were no problems there.’
She was initially playing with Flipper earlier this year, when you started playing again…
‘Yeah, well she and Ted are also friends and they both live in Oakland. Ted tends to need a little-bit of hand-holding when we start to get the thing going again after a break. He needs to have somebody to play with and rehearse with, to work through the songs again and re-familiarise himself with them. He can get quite nervous when he hasn’t been playing for a while, so it was a natural thing for him and Rachel to get together and rehearse. It gave Ted a chance to build up his confidence again, before we brought in the drums and vocals. We played a few shows with her but she wasn’t able to do this tour because she had been in a couple of car accidents over the last few years and she has some injuries that she’s still receiving physical therapy for… When we started talking about playing some longer tours, she had to tell me that she really wouldn’t be able to sit in a car or a van for long periods of time. Especially when you’re touring in Europe, that’s pretty much every day. Four, five or six hours in the van every day and that’s not comfortable for anyone. So she had to tell me that she wouldn’t be able to tour in Europe, which was a real shame, but at least I was able to reach out to Mike Watt and so far, this has been really great. As soon as I spoke to him, he remembered Flipper and the Minutemen playing together, like, 38 years ago ! He remembered the town, the hall, everything ! So getting together with him was just like we’d known each other for ever. Even though we’d never spent much time together over the years, we’d crossed paths along the way and it felt like we knew each other. We gelled right away and it’s been really good.’
‘Yeah, but the sad thing is that it was an album that people just didn’t seem to pay attention to. I mean, part of that was because we did a deal directly with a distribution company and then they did zero promotion for it. But I am hoping to get it reissued with a different label and this time I’ll make sure that they really push it. But, yeah, I think Krist did enjoy it but, after those records came out, people really wanted us to tour quite extensively. Up until then, we’d only played those shows in the UK and Ireland and a few dates on the West Coast. We were starting to think about setting-up a tour, but one day he called me and said he really didn’t want to do it. I think he’s a bit of a homebody these days and I don’t think he wanted to be away from home for so long. And, to be honest, I think he was also getting a bit sick of Bruce. He just started to get fed-up with Bruce’s shit… Bruce could be very condescending to him, even when we were mixing the album at Jack Endino’s studio, and after nearly two years of that, I can’t blame him for thinking, I don’t need this shit ! I mean, Krist was really cool with us and a really nice guy, but Bruce kept saying a variety of things to him. After two years of that, he was done with it and I don’t think he wanted to go out on a long tour, so that was when he left…’
But you quickly drafted-in Rachel Theole, who had previously been in Frightwig, to play bass and were still able to go out on tour…
‘She was someone we’d all known for a long time, so for us it was no big deal that there was suddenly a woman in the band. Plus she and Bruce were already friends so she knew how to deal with his shit. Actually, I think part of it was that Bruce used to feel as if he didn’t have a friend in the band. Me and Ted always got along well, but then there was Bruce and he was always… you know, whatever ! I think he used to feel he was on his own in the band, so we thought it would be good to bring in Rachel because she could play really well and she was also his friend. We thought that might calm him down and make him more tolerable, because he’d have someone there he got along with. But of course, it didn’t work and it didn’t change him at all. But Rachel was great and we didn’t have any issue with a female being in the band… perhaps a female singer wouldn’t have worked, but she was a great bass player so there were no problems there.’
She was initially playing with Flipper earlier this year, when you started playing again…
‘Yeah, well she and Ted are also friends and they both live in Oakland. Ted tends to need a little-bit of hand-holding when we start to get the thing going again after a break. He needs to have somebody to play with and rehearse with, to work through the songs again and re-familiarise himself with them. He can get quite nervous when he hasn’t been playing for a while, so it was a natural thing for him and Rachel to get together and rehearse. It gave Ted a chance to build up his confidence again, before we brought in the drums and vocals. We played a few shows with her but she wasn’t able to do this tour because she had been in a couple of car accidents over the last few years and she has some injuries that she’s still receiving physical therapy for… When we started talking about playing some longer tours, she had to tell me that she really wouldn’t be able to sit in a car or a van for long periods of time. Especially when you’re touring in Europe, that’s pretty much every day. Four, five or six hours in the van every day and that’s not comfortable for anyone. So she had to tell me that she wouldn’t be able to tour in Europe, which was a real shame, but at least I was able to reach out to Mike Watt and so far, this has been really great. As soon as I spoke to him, he remembered Flipper and the Minutemen playing together, like, 38 years ago ! He remembered the town, the hall, everything ! So getting together with him was just like we’d known each other for ever. Even though we’d never spent much time together over the years, we’d crossed paths along the way and it felt like we knew each other. We gelled right away and it’s been really good.’
You first played a few shows with David Yow as the new lead singer back in 2015. By that point, was there no chance of Bruce being involved again ?
‘No, Bruce is beyond repair … his back is fucked and his mind is fucked … he’s just done with it and I don’t think there’s any way he could do it again. He literally, physically, can’t do it. The last time we came to the UK, back in 2012, he was already complaining that if he played one gig it would take a month for him to recover. And the thing is, his condition is degenerative so it wasn’t going to get any better. I was talking to him on the phone a while ago and he’s also having problems with his lungs, so he’d probably have problems just singing…
But you’ve still been able to put this tour together and it seems to be getting a really positive reaction. Are you surprised that people are still so interested, or at least intrigued, with Flipper ?
‘Yes, what else can I say ? I don’t know how it all happened. I don’t know what or why or how, but it happened. I don’t know where our sound came from or where the songs came from, it just all happened. Nothing was ever preconceived or planned… as you can probably imagine, Flipper never planned anything ! Even now, I just come up with ideas or concepts, but then I’ve got to convince other people to do it. So far, since I came up with this idea, which was back in January of this year, everything I thought about doing has happened… That’s the way it happens. I come up with the ideas, make all the phone calls and send all the emails and then I try to convince Ted, this is what we’ve got to do… and then he fights me every step of the way, but we still manage to make it happen ! Flipper has been around for forty years and no-one ever expected that, so anything is up for grabs !
The important thing is that Flipper Still Rules…
‘Okay !’
‘No, Bruce is beyond repair … his back is fucked and his mind is fucked … he’s just done with it and I don’t think there’s any way he could do it again. He literally, physically, can’t do it. The last time we came to the UK, back in 2012, he was already complaining that if he played one gig it would take a month for him to recover. And the thing is, his condition is degenerative so it wasn’t going to get any better. I was talking to him on the phone a while ago and he’s also having problems with his lungs, so he’d probably have problems just singing…
But you’ve still been able to put this tour together and it seems to be getting a really positive reaction. Are you surprised that people are still so interested, or at least intrigued, with Flipper ?
‘Yes, what else can I say ? I don’t know how it all happened. I don’t know what or why or how, but it happened. I don’t know where our sound came from or where the songs came from, it just all happened. Nothing was ever preconceived or planned… as you can probably imagine, Flipper never planned anything ! Even now, I just come up with ideas or concepts, but then I’ve got to convince other people to do it. So far, since I came up with this idea, which was back in January of this year, everything I thought about doing has happened… That’s the way it happens. I come up with the ideas, make all the phone calls and send all the emails and then I try to convince Ted, this is what we’ve got to do… and then he fights me every step of the way, but we still manage to make it happen ! Flipper has been around for forty years and no-one ever expected that, so anything is up for grabs !
The important thing is that Flipper Still Rules…
‘Okay !’
It’s now creeping towards gig-time, so we all return to The Garage where support band We Are The Asteroid are already in mid-flow. Having not been familiar with this Texas-based band before now, I’m pretty impressed with how they sound. It’s a noisy brand of rock, perhaps reminiscent of the wonderful Steel Pole Bath Tub, but also incorporating a darkly psychedelic approach. They were an ideal support for Flipper and I’m sure a lot of the audience will be checking them out further.
But Flipper are, of course, the main reason for attendance here and when the band walk out onstage, they’re greeted with a big cheer. David Yow introduces the band as the others prepare to play and then Mike Watt begins the slow, repetitive bass line for ‘The Lights, The Sound’, while Steve and Ted seemingly join-in when they feel ready. It’s a classic Flipper intro, starting with the bare-bones but gradually building it up into a glorious melee of sound. Yow spends most of the song down in the audience, hustling and provoking the audience who, initially, aren’t too sure what’s happening. But he’s back onstage for the second number, the more upbeat ‘Ha Ha Ha’ and by this point, the crowd are totally into it. The set progresses with a virtual selection of fan-favourites (this is their 40th Anniversary, after all) from ‘Way of The World’ to ‘Get Away’ and ‘Love Canal’ through to ‘Sacrifice’. ‘Shed No Tears’ is as poignant as ever, whilst even ‘Brainwash’ gets a (repetitive) airing, before the set comes to the inevitable climax of ‘Sex Bomb’, complete with Yow parading across the stage, proudly trouser-less !
But Flipper are, of course, the main reason for attendance here and when the band walk out onstage, they’re greeted with a big cheer. David Yow introduces the band as the others prepare to play and then Mike Watt begins the slow, repetitive bass line for ‘The Lights, The Sound’, while Steve and Ted seemingly join-in when they feel ready. It’s a classic Flipper intro, starting with the bare-bones but gradually building it up into a glorious melee of sound. Yow spends most of the song down in the audience, hustling and provoking the audience who, initially, aren’t too sure what’s happening. But he’s back onstage for the second number, the more upbeat ‘Ha Ha Ha’ and by this point, the crowd are totally into it. The set progresses with a virtual selection of fan-favourites (this is their 40th Anniversary, after all) from ‘Way of The World’ to ‘Get Away’ and ‘Love Canal’ through to ‘Sacrifice’. ‘Shed No Tears’ is as poignant as ever, whilst even ‘Brainwash’ gets a (repetitive) airing, before the set comes to the inevitable climax of ‘Sex Bomb’, complete with Yow parading across the stage, proudly trouser-less !
There had been some doubts whether the band would be as effective without original front-man Bruce Loose but this line-up worked really well. Steve and Mike seem to have clicked-together as an ideal rhythm section, Ted looked as if he was really enjoying himself whilst creating his unique wall of noise and David Yow proved to be a perfect frontman, not trying to imitate Bruce but at the same time presenting a similarly antagonistic-yet-(darkly)-humorous performance. Tonights’ show was a classic Flipper gig and while it’s easy for some to whinge about it not being the original line-up, I doubt if many who actually saw this set were disappointed. I just hope that they decide to continue as there certainly seems to be a real chemistry between the current members. If you ever had any doubts, I’ll say it once again – Flipper Still Rules !
