‘Jordan remains largely uncredited as one of the major people in the Britpunk fashion look…McLaren and Westwood fed off her charisma and following, and mass-produced her fashion ideas…’
Brendan Mullen (founder of The Masque, the
legendary Hollywood punk rock club.)
Brendan Mullen (founder of The Masque, the
legendary Hollywood punk rock club.)
The visual style of the early Punk movement was as stunning, raw and imaginative as the music produced by the original bands. And although much of it centred around the McLaren-Westwood shop at 430, Kings Road (known as ‘Sex’ and then ‘Seditionaries’ during this period) it was actually the individuals who were drawn to the shop that had as much input on the emerging styles as the designs within the shop itself. Whilst Westwoods’ creations were undoubtedly special, they needed the right people to wear them. People like John Rotten, Adam Ant and Siouxsie took the clothes but added their own individuality to them, completing the image perfectly. Not necessarily looking the same as each other, but presenting an approach and attitude that would spearhead the new movement. One further name must be added to the above - Jordan Mooney. She had already nurtured her own image and approach before being hired as an assistant at Sex and, while their clothes and ideas would obviously influence the way she further-developed her style, she would also provide just as much inspiration for Vivienne Westwoods’ latest creations. She was involved in many of the key events of the British punk scene, from witnessing John Lydon’s audition for the Sex Pistols (singing along to an Alice Cooper record an the shop jukebox) through to the bands’ first TV appearance on ‘So It Goes’. During 1977, she began her long-lasting friendship with Adam Ant and started to manage his newly-formed band, eventually joining them onstage (and on one of their John Peel sessions) to sing the song ‘Lou’. For many, she became one of the real faces of the Punk Rock scene, just as important and inspirational as the bands themselves.
In 1978, she appeared in Derek Jarmans’ infamous film ‘Jubilee’ and was also instrumental in bringing many characters from the Punk scene into the production, both as actors and musicians (the Ants, Wayne County etc.)
However, in the early 80’s she gradually removed herself from the scene and returned to her hometown of Seaford where she started a new career as a veterinary nurse and also became a respected cat-breeder ! She would only appear very occasionally in documentaries but her low public-profile served, unintentionally, as a perfect way to set her original style in a truly iconic position, as much a statement of that era as the songs and music of the time.
I was lucky enough to meet Jordan a couple of years ago at one of the excellent Punk Rock’n’Roll Art Shows. Since then, I’ve met her again at various events and we began to make plans to do an interview. Unfortunately, this always seemed to be thwarted by various interruptions, so it was not until a couple of months ago that we finally managed to sit down and chat. We were both going to see Johnny Moped playing at the Con Club in Lewes, so we arranged to meet-up in a nearby pub beforehand and, over a couple of drinks, we had a great conversation.
In 1978, she appeared in Derek Jarmans’ infamous film ‘Jubilee’ and was also instrumental in bringing many characters from the Punk scene into the production, both as actors and musicians (the Ants, Wayne County etc.)
However, in the early 80’s she gradually removed herself from the scene and returned to her hometown of Seaford where she started a new career as a veterinary nurse and also became a respected cat-breeder ! She would only appear very occasionally in documentaries but her low public-profile served, unintentionally, as a perfect way to set her original style in a truly iconic position, as much a statement of that era as the songs and music of the time.
I was lucky enough to meet Jordan a couple of years ago at one of the excellent Punk Rock’n’Roll Art Shows. Since then, I’ve met her again at various events and we began to make plans to do an interview. Unfortunately, this always seemed to be thwarted by various interruptions, so it was not until a couple of months ago that we finally managed to sit down and chat. We were both going to see Johnny Moped playing at the Con Club in Lewes, so we arranged to meet-up in a nearby pub beforehand and, over a couple of drinks, we had a great conversation.
To begin with, I wondered how old Jordan was when she first started to become interested in music and fashion ?
‘I started to get a really clear idea of what I wanted to look like from about the age of seven. I had very clear lines of things, like colours and textures, and I can remember picking out certain things for my Mum to buy me. My parents were both very good to me about this, because I was born in 1955 and there was still a lot of post-war austerity while I was growing-up. But they were happy to have a little girl who cute and sweet or what-have-you. Plus, my Mum was a seamstress, so she made me a lot of lovely little dresses as well, which were really, really nice. They were really happy that I was interested in that side of things because my elder sister was quite a tomboy. I was the opposite of that and I used to like to dance quite a lot… I even practiced ballet for several years, later on, so they were happy that I had those kind of interests back then. Of course, things did change when I started to grow up and my ideas about fashion developed.’
The period for which you are best known are the years during the mid-Seventies and there are many famous images of you from that time. By that point, what were the main influences behind your style ?
‘I would say there were a lot of different things, but certainly things like the hairstyle that Mia Farrow had in ‘Rosemary’s Baby’… I had my hair cut short at a time when girls were not supposed to do that, as it supposedly gave out all the wrong messages for the chaps. But my Mum was happy for me to do that because it actually looked very good on me. At the same time there was a lot of stuff coming out of ‘Mr Freedom’ on the Kings Road and I was also finding a lot of older things from thrift shops… I used to buy a lot of things from second-hand stalls, in particular a lot of Fifties stuff that I would use as the basis to make something else.’
I always thought your style often combined more contemporary elements from the Art-school side of Glam rock with styles that came from the early rock’n’roll era…
‘Oh yes, yeah ! And also, as I said, I had been dancing and a lot of those outfits were really quite dance –orientated. I used to wear leotards and tights in the shop, when I first worked for Vivienne That sort of thing would always appear very strict but at the same time, quite seductive. It wasn’t the kind of clothing that you’d see in public every day, but I was wearing ballet-gear on the street.’
‘I started to get a really clear idea of what I wanted to look like from about the age of seven. I had very clear lines of things, like colours and textures, and I can remember picking out certain things for my Mum to buy me. My parents were both very good to me about this, because I was born in 1955 and there was still a lot of post-war austerity while I was growing-up. But they were happy to have a little girl who cute and sweet or what-have-you. Plus, my Mum was a seamstress, so she made me a lot of lovely little dresses as well, which were really, really nice. They were really happy that I was interested in that side of things because my elder sister was quite a tomboy. I was the opposite of that and I used to like to dance quite a lot… I even practiced ballet for several years, later on, so they were happy that I had those kind of interests back then. Of course, things did change when I started to grow up and my ideas about fashion developed.’
The period for which you are best known are the years during the mid-Seventies and there are many famous images of you from that time. By that point, what were the main influences behind your style ?
‘I would say there were a lot of different things, but certainly things like the hairstyle that Mia Farrow had in ‘Rosemary’s Baby’… I had my hair cut short at a time when girls were not supposed to do that, as it supposedly gave out all the wrong messages for the chaps. But my Mum was happy for me to do that because it actually looked very good on me. At the same time there was a lot of stuff coming out of ‘Mr Freedom’ on the Kings Road and I was also finding a lot of older things from thrift shops… I used to buy a lot of things from second-hand stalls, in particular a lot of Fifties stuff that I would use as the basis to make something else.’
I always thought your style often combined more contemporary elements from the Art-school side of Glam rock with styles that came from the early rock’n’roll era…
‘Oh yes, yeah ! And also, as I said, I had been dancing and a lot of those outfits were really quite dance –orientated. I used to wear leotards and tights in the shop, when I first worked for Vivienne That sort of thing would always appear very strict but at the same time, quite seductive. It wasn’t the kind of clothing that you’d see in public every day, but I was wearing ballet-gear on the street.’
One of the things that sometimes gets mentioned as a possible influence on early Punk styles is ‘The Rocky Horror Show’. Personally, I’ve never been convinced by that connection…
‘No, absolutely not, at least not for me. ‘The Rocky Horror Show’ was not one of my favourite things at all. I’ve never really liked caricatures, I’ve never liked Disney and things like that. I never have done and in the same way, I always thought ‘The Rocky Horror Show’ was a little bit hackneyed and just not my style.’
At which point did you adopt the name change ‘Jordan’ ?
‘I’d been playing with a lot of different names for a while. I didn’t like my first name and I thought, well, if I don’t like it, I should just change it. But it was actually my sister who made the suggestion that I should use the name ‘Jordan’. She’d read ‘The Great Gatsby’ and one of the characters was a very powerful lady called Jordan Baker. She’s a lady golfer and also a bit of a shyster, but she always comes across as a very powerful character. I really liked the name and I also liked the part she plays in the story, so I started using it from then on. But I didn’t feel that I was trying to become someone else. I always felt that I was the same person, but I just wanted a name that fitted me. The name came second, really. It was never a case that I picked a name and then based myself around it. The only thing that’s been a bit awkward was when Katie Price was calling herself Jordan. That did irritate me at the time, but it’s petered-out quite a bit as she doesn’t really use that name any more. At one point, I was actually thinking of having my name changed from ‘Jordan Mooney’, which was my married name, just to ‘Jordan’, but it would have been difficult as she was pretty well-known under that name at the time. So that’s what stopped me. I have no idea why she started using that name but I do have suspicions that may she or one of her agents might have known of me and decided to nick it for whatever reason. But, strangely enough, there’s a female character in the Tom Cruise move ‘Cocktail’ and she’s actually called ‘Jordan Mooney’… what are the chances of that ?’
When did you first come across Malcolm, Vivienne and their shop ?
‘I saw a very tiny clip of an article in, I think, ‘Honey’ magazine, which was about this shop at the end of the Kings Road which looked really interesting. It was a really small piece, probably just a few words in a tiny segment, you know, one of the little snippets they’d put in those kind of magazines to fill-up the pages. But it really intrigued me and I just thought, I have to go along and have a look at this place. Unfortunately, the first time I went down there, I seem to recall that it was closed for refurbishment, which probably means that it must have been around the time that it was changing from ‘Too Fast to Live, Too Young To Die’ into ‘Sex’. So I had to go home without actually getting inside the place, but I was already making plans to go there again. Meanwhile, around the same time I’d started thinking about trying to get a job up in London. From what I’d read about it, I was already thinking that I’d probably like to work at their shop, but I realised that I needed to get my foot in the door first, just getting myself a job in London to begin with. So I started looking for work and arranged to go for an interview at ‘Way-In’, which was a boutique in Harrods. I got the job and I started working there, staying at my brothers’ place in Plaistow. But when I had some spare time, I finally managed to visit the shop at 430 and spoke to the manager, Michael Collins, who said he thought I’d be perfect to work there, if and when I gave up my other job. So that day, I went back to Harrods and quit that job so that I could start working at Sex. I’ve never been very good with dates, but I think that would have been at the end of 1974 or the start of ’75…’
‘No, absolutely not, at least not for me. ‘The Rocky Horror Show’ was not one of my favourite things at all. I’ve never really liked caricatures, I’ve never liked Disney and things like that. I never have done and in the same way, I always thought ‘The Rocky Horror Show’ was a little bit hackneyed and just not my style.’
At which point did you adopt the name change ‘Jordan’ ?
‘I’d been playing with a lot of different names for a while. I didn’t like my first name and I thought, well, if I don’t like it, I should just change it. But it was actually my sister who made the suggestion that I should use the name ‘Jordan’. She’d read ‘The Great Gatsby’ and one of the characters was a very powerful lady called Jordan Baker. She’s a lady golfer and also a bit of a shyster, but she always comes across as a very powerful character. I really liked the name and I also liked the part she plays in the story, so I started using it from then on. But I didn’t feel that I was trying to become someone else. I always felt that I was the same person, but I just wanted a name that fitted me. The name came second, really. It was never a case that I picked a name and then based myself around it. The only thing that’s been a bit awkward was when Katie Price was calling herself Jordan. That did irritate me at the time, but it’s petered-out quite a bit as she doesn’t really use that name any more. At one point, I was actually thinking of having my name changed from ‘Jordan Mooney’, which was my married name, just to ‘Jordan’, but it would have been difficult as she was pretty well-known under that name at the time. So that’s what stopped me. I have no idea why she started using that name but I do have suspicions that may she or one of her agents might have known of me and decided to nick it for whatever reason. But, strangely enough, there’s a female character in the Tom Cruise move ‘Cocktail’ and she’s actually called ‘Jordan Mooney’… what are the chances of that ?’
When did you first come across Malcolm, Vivienne and their shop ?
‘I saw a very tiny clip of an article in, I think, ‘Honey’ magazine, which was about this shop at the end of the Kings Road which looked really interesting. It was a really small piece, probably just a few words in a tiny segment, you know, one of the little snippets they’d put in those kind of magazines to fill-up the pages. But it really intrigued me and I just thought, I have to go along and have a look at this place. Unfortunately, the first time I went down there, I seem to recall that it was closed for refurbishment, which probably means that it must have been around the time that it was changing from ‘Too Fast to Live, Too Young To Die’ into ‘Sex’. So I had to go home without actually getting inside the place, but I was already making plans to go there again. Meanwhile, around the same time I’d started thinking about trying to get a job up in London. From what I’d read about it, I was already thinking that I’d probably like to work at their shop, but I realised that I needed to get my foot in the door first, just getting myself a job in London to begin with. So I started looking for work and arranged to go for an interview at ‘Way-In’, which was a boutique in Harrods. I got the job and I started working there, staying at my brothers’ place in Plaistow. But when I had some spare time, I finally managed to visit the shop at 430 and spoke to the manager, Michael Collins, who said he thought I’d be perfect to work there, if and when I gave up my other job. So that day, I went back to Harrods and quit that job so that I could start working at Sex. I’ve never been very good with dates, but I think that would have been at the end of 1974 or the start of ’75…’
When you started working there, how much do you think you were influenced by what was happening at the shop ?
‘Well, funnily enough, I recently interviewed Vivienne for my book and she sees it the other way around. She said that, when I started work there, she’d never seen anyone like me before, and looks were very important to her in those days. The other thing was youth, the whole essence of being young. Looking good, being young and also really believing in what you were doing. It will always make a real difference when you really believe in yourself.’
Your own, personal style certainly seems to stand-out when you look at the early pictures of you and others in the shop. You were very much a part of what was happening, but you were also very much making your own statement…
‘Yeah, I’d have to agree with that. And I’m not just saying that in any sort of big-headed way. But I do think that when you see those photos, they speak for themselves really.’
Strangely, by the time you started working at ‘Sex’, you moved back down to Seaford and were having to commute to work every day. With the way you looked, it must have been a bit awkward at times…
‘I did and it was ! But I couldn’t stay at my brothers’ flat for ever as they just didn’t have enough space for me. Basically, I was just going there to sleep in their spare room and it was never intended to be an ongoing arrangement. I did share a tiny, little place with a friend on Sloane Square for a while, but we ended-up getting chucked-out of there because we weren’t paying the rent or something. So I had to move back to Seaford and I ended-up commuting for quite a while, which could cause quite a commotion on the trains ! Funnily enough, I don’t think society has actually changed all that much, in that way. If I wear one of Vivienne’s ‘tits’ t-shirts, even now, I don’t think a lot of people are comfortable with it. A lot of people are not that much more broad-minded than they were forty years ago. But I am a great Anglophile and I do believe that a lot of the things that happened in the Seventies, as well as other things that happened before then, were only able to happen because of the nature of our culture and our people. Outwardly, we may appear to be outraged, but at the same time we can be very accepting. There were times that I was actually physically threatened, although strangely-enough, it was mainly from women who thought I was dressing in an unfit manner to be on the street. With men, it would be more like sexual harassment… People like that just take things to the bass-line, don’t they ? They might see me walking around in rubber and think that I must be doing it because I was a prostitute, which was absolutely ridiculous. They didn’t even try to understand that there might be an idea or a background to it… I wanted rubberwear to be part of everyday wear, and that’s what it became for me. I wasn’t trying to be provocative in any way. It was something that I liked because it was tactile and interesting. It wasn’t a fetish thing, it was a style thing. But even now, although it does sneak into the mainstream sometimes, it still isn’t something that’s generally acceptable.’
‘Well, funnily enough, I recently interviewed Vivienne for my book and she sees it the other way around. She said that, when I started work there, she’d never seen anyone like me before, and looks were very important to her in those days. The other thing was youth, the whole essence of being young. Looking good, being young and also really believing in what you were doing. It will always make a real difference when you really believe in yourself.’
Your own, personal style certainly seems to stand-out when you look at the early pictures of you and others in the shop. You were very much a part of what was happening, but you were also very much making your own statement…
‘Yeah, I’d have to agree with that. And I’m not just saying that in any sort of big-headed way. But I do think that when you see those photos, they speak for themselves really.’
Strangely, by the time you started working at ‘Sex’, you moved back down to Seaford and were having to commute to work every day. With the way you looked, it must have been a bit awkward at times…
‘I did and it was ! But I couldn’t stay at my brothers’ flat for ever as they just didn’t have enough space for me. Basically, I was just going there to sleep in their spare room and it was never intended to be an ongoing arrangement. I did share a tiny, little place with a friend on Sloane Square for a while, but we ended-up getting chucked-out of there because we weren’t paying the rent or something. So I had to move back to Seaford and I ended-up commuting for quite a while, which could cause quite a commotion on the trains ! Funnily enough, I don’t think society has actually changed all that much, in that way. If I wear one of Vivienne’s ‘tits’ t-shirts, even now, I don’t think a lot of people are comfortable with it. A lot of people are not that much more broad-minded than they were forty years ago. But I am a great Anglophile and I do believe that a lot of the things that happened in the Seventies, as well as other things that happened before then, were only able to happen because of the nature of our culture and our people. Outwardly, we may appear to be outraged, but at the same time we can be very accepting. There were times that I was actually physically threatened, although strangely-enough, it was mainly from women who thought I was dressing in an unfit manner to be on the street. With men, it would be more like sexual harassment… People like that just take things to the bass-line, don’t they ? They might see me walking around in rubber and think that I must be doing it because I was a prostitute, which was absolutely ridiculous. They didn’t even try to understand that there might be an idea or a background to it… I wanted rubberwear to be part of everyday wear, and that’s what it became for me. I wasn’t trying to be provocative in any way. It was something that I liked because it was tactile and interesting. It wasn’t a fetish thing, it was a style thing. But even now, although it does sneak into the mainstream sometimes, it still isn’t something that’s generally acceptable.’
In the early days while you were working at Sex, what kind of people made up the clientele ?
‘There were still a lot of Teds… Malcolm and Vivienne made a lot of transitions in the shop but they never really severed everything from what they’d been doing previously. There would always be some of the older stuff in there and a lot of Teddy Boys would still come in to buy those things. Some of them actually started getting quite annoyed because the shop was being taken-over by a different type of person… this wasn’t until a bit later on, when the shop started to stock more fetish wear and started attracting the type of people who wanted handmade rubber or leather clothes. But most people seemed very welcoming and there was never any real trouble. No-one was pointing their finger or laughing at the others because everyone was in the same boat and were all unusual in some way. The only times we used to have to close-up the shop early was when Chelsea were playing at home, just around the corner from us. They had a really rowdy following during the Seventies and some of them would occasionally cause trouble when they passed the shop.’
Vivienne’s clothes were comparatively quite expensive and not really the kind of thing that a lot of kids could afford. But in a way, it seemed that she was almost producing them as art-pieces rather than just fashion-designs…
‘That’s exactly how she felt about it. Actually, one of the best things I think she ever said, was that you should buy less, but make it last and wear it over and over again. I do think that her clothes were works of Art and I don’t see why artists should be expected to just give things away. I know there was a punk ethos and there was that whole thing going on, but you could always make your own choice whether to buy those clothes or not. I even had to buy the clothes I wanted from there, they were never free, but I’ve always thought that if you really value something then you’ll be happy to pay for it. Once you start giving things away, they become valueless. And I think that was always a part of the way she thought, that you had to value things. It’s a case of ‘cost’ versus ‘value’, and they’re two very different things. People have this twisted version of ‘everything should be for free’, but if that’s the case, why don’t you go and make it yourself ? Which certain people and certain shops actually did… if people just wanted the clothes and didn’t want to pay Vivienne’s prices, they could easily find copies of them in other shops for a lot less. So I’ve always disliked that attitude, the same as when people accuse a band of ‘selling-out’ or whatever, just because they’ve signed a record deal. The thing is, you can only have power if you have something powerful behind it. What’s the point of living in poverty with a great idea that you just play over and over again in your own mind and no-one else will ever get to hear it ? Doing things like that is just being up your own arse, isn’t it ?’
‘There were still a lot of Teds… Malcolm and Vivienne made a lot of transitions in the shop but they never really severed everything from what they’d been doing previously. There would always be some of the older stuff in there and a lot of Teddy Boys would still come in to buy those things. Some of them actually started getting quite annoyed because the shop was being taken-over by a different type of person… this wasn’t until a bit later on, when the shop started to stock more fetish wear and started attracting the type of people who wanted handmade rubber or leather clothes. But most people seemed very welcoming and there was never any real trouble. No-one was pointing their finger or laughing at the others because everyone was in the same boat and were all unusual in some way. The only times we used to have to close-up the shop early was when Chelsea were playing at home, just around the corner from us. They had a really rowdy following during the Seventies and some of them would occasionally cause trouble when they passed the shop.’
Vivienne’s clothes were comparatively quite expensive and not really the kind of thing that a lot of kids could afford. But in a way, it seemed that she was almost producing them as art-pieces rather than just fashion-designs…
‘That’s exactly how she felt about it. Actually, one of the best things I think she ever said, was that you should buy less, but make it last and wear it over and over again. I do think that her clothes were works of Art and I don’t see why artists should be expected to just give things away. I know there was a punk ethos and there was that whole thing going on, but you could always make your own choice whether to buy those clothes or not. I even had to buy the clothes I wanted from there, they were never free, but I’ve always thought that if you really value something then you’ll be happy to pay for it. Once you start giving things away, they become valueless. And I think that was always a part of the way she thought, that you had to value things. It’s a case of ‘cost’ versus ‘value’, and they’re two very different things. People have this twisted version of ‘everything should be for free’, but if that’s the case, why don’t you go and make it yourself ? Which certain people and certain shops actually did… if people just wanted the clothes and didn’t want to pay Vivienne’s prices, they could easily find copies of them in other shops for a lot less. So I’ve always disliked that attitude, the same as when people accuse a band of ‘selling-out’ or whatever, just because they’ve signed a record deal. The thing is, you can only have power if you have something powerful behind it. What’s the point of living in poverty with a great idea that you just play over and over again in your own mind and no-one else will ever get to hear it ? Doing things like that is just being up your own arse, isn’t it ?’
When did you first become aware of the Sex Pistols ? I expect you must have met Glen while he was working in the shop ?
‘Yeah, Glen was actually working there before anyone else… I met John when they brought him in to the shop for his ‘audition’, which was really funny ! I think different people have different memories of that evening, but I recall Malcolm asking him if he could sing or play an instrument and he said that he could play a violin, but only out-of-tune… Which, of course, anyone can do. You just have to pick one up and scrape a bow on it ! But, yeah, that was really funny. I met Sid as he used to come into the shop pretty often and I think that’s how I met Steve as well. He was so funny, a natural born comic, which is why his radio show has been such a success and why so many people enjoyed his book. Once the band started playing, we went along to the gigs because Malcolm was putting them on. I think the first one I saw was probably the one at Andrew Logan’s party. They were quite rough and raw, but they were also like nothing anyone had seen before and it was quite obvious that they were something special. Marco Pirroni was saying recently that some people think that, because we lived through all of that era, we were going everywhere, seeing everything, sucking it all in and thinking it was all great. But in actual fact, once you saw the Sex Pistols, you just couldn’t beat them. We did go and see a lot of the other bands, but the Sex Pistols were truly something else. All of the band members worked so well together and the lyrics were great… They had this real fearlessness and the great thing was that they caused such a difference of opinion. I’ve always thought that there should be a very clear demarcation line between children and their parents, which is why I actually feel very concerned about today’s children… It now seems that older people want to dress like their children and the children just want to conform. When you have those two things together at the same time, it’s pretty dangerous for the way society develops. It’s all to do with branding as well, which is really bad. People are being influenced by the masses of media that are being thrown at them, magazines, television, Facebook, and they see celebrities wearing those brands… That culture has seeped into the youth in a deep, deep way and it’s also influencing their parents because there’s so much emphasis of trying to keep looking young. So the parents end up dressing like their children, wearing things like Super Dry and Hollister, but, basically, when you wear those things, you’re just advertising shit ! That’s all they’re really doing and, at the same time, paying a load of money for it. The horrible thing is that it just doesn’t mean anything.’
There was an infamous occasion when you got onstage with the Pistols and went topless. Was that pre-planned or a spontaneous event ?
‘It was at Andrew Logan’s party. Malcolm had seen that Nick Kent was there and it was a chance for the band to get a mention in the NME, so he came over to me and told me to get onstage and get my top off ! That was the only thing he could think to do as he was just thinking on his feet. I told him that I wouldn’t do that, but he kept insisting that I had to do it and saying that it would be the bands’ first press coverage… In the end, I said I’d do it, but only if John instigated it. I’d go up on the stage with my top off the shoulder, looking a bit seductive, and John would have to do the rest because I wasn’t going to do it. John would have to put his own take on it and make it look as if it was something he was doing. Then, after my top came off, he pushed me to the floor and held my arms back, so it worked much better than me just taking my top off. The thing is, although it was initially set-up, it became very real once John became involved, pushing me down on the floor and holding me there. If I was going to do something, I think that was the way we had to do it. But when I see that photo now, the thing I really like about it is the way that Steve is behind me and John, staring at my bosoms ! That’s so funny ! But I do find it strange that, even now, people still find that image quite risqué…
‘Yeah, Glen was actually working there before anyone else… I met John when they brought him in to the shop for his ‘audition’, which was really funny ! I think different people have different memories of that evening, but I recall Malcolm asking him if he could sing or play an instrument and he said that he could play a violin, but only out-of-tune… Which, of course, anyone can do. You just have to pick one up and scrape a bow on it ! But, yeah, that was really funny. I met Sid as he used to come into the shop pretty often and I think that’s how I met Steve as well. He was so funny, a natural born comic, which is why his radio show has been such a success and why so many people enjoyed his book. Once the band started playing, we went along to the gigs because Malcolm was putting them on. I think the first one I saw was probably the one at Andrew Logan’s party. They were quite rough and raw, but they were also like nothing anyone had seen before and it was quite obvious that they were something special. Marco Pirroni was saying recently that some people think that, because we lived through all of that era, we were going everywhere, seeing everything, sucking it all in and thinking it was all great. But in actual fact, once you saw the Sex Pistols, you just couldn’t beat them. We did go and see a lot of the other bands, but the Sex Pistols were truly something else. All of the band members worked so well together and the lyrics were great… They had this real fearlessness and the great thing was that they caused such a difference of opinion. I’ve always thought that there should be a very clear demarcation line between children and their parents, which is why I actually feel very concerned about today’s children… It now seems that older people want to dress like their children and the children just want to conform. When you have those two things together at the same time, it’s pretty dangerous for the way society develops. It’s all to do with branding as well, which is really bad. People are being influenced by the masses of media that are being thrown at them, magazines, television, Facebook, and they see celebrities wearing those brands… That culture has seeped into the youth in a deep, deep way and it’s also influencing their parents because there’s so much emphasis of trying to keep looking young. So the parents end up dressing like their children, wearing things like Super Dry and Hollister, but, basically, when you wear those things, you’re just advertising shit ! That’s all they’re really doing and, at the same time, paying a load of money for it. The horrible thing is that it just doesn’t mean anything.’
There was an infamous occasion when you got onstage with the Pistols and went topless. Was that pre-planned or a spontaneous event ?
‘It was at Andrew Logan’s party. Malcolm had seen that Nick Kent was there and it was a chance for the band to get a mention in the NME, so he came over to me and told me to get onstage and get my top off ! That was the only thing he could think to do as he was just thinking on his feet. I told him that I wouldn’t do that, but he kept insisting that I had to do it and saying that it would be the bands’ first press coverage… In the end, I said I’d do it, but only if John instigated it. I’d go up on the stage with my top off the shoulder, looking a bit seductive, and John would have to do the rest because I wasn’t going to do it. John would have to put his own take on it and make it look as if it was something he was doing. Then, after my top came off, he pushed me to the floor and held my arms back, so it worked much better than me just taking my top off. The thing is, although it was initially set-up, it became very real once John became involved, pushing me down on the floor and holding me there. If I was going to do something, I think that was the way we had to do it. But when I see that photo now, the thing I really like about it is the way that Steve is behind me and John, staring at my bosoms ! That’s so funny ! But I do find it strange that, even now, people still find that image quite risqué…
When the so-called ‘Bromley Contingent’ started to frequent the shop and follow the band, did you feel that they were ‘kindred spirits’ ?
‘Oh, yeah, I did. Particularly Simon Barker, Sioux and Steve Severin. We had a flat at Buckingham Gate and, much like the shop, it was a place where everyone took ideas from each other, so it was a really interesting place to be in. It was as much a place where we could talk to other people as it was just a place to live, a bit like those old cafes where philosophers used to gather. The shop was much the same thing, it had a great vibe to it and it inspired a lot of ideas from people as they learned from each other. The thing was, there were lots of bands that I went to see and, in retrospect, I’ve seen photo’s of me there at the gigs to prove that I was there, but it was all like a whirlwind really. I don’t particularly remember going to see any band more than once, but I was always out and gigs and parties.’
You accompanied the Pistols when they went up to Manchester to appear on ‘So It Goes’ at the invite of Tony Wilson, but there was some controversy when you were due to introduce the band and the studio objected to you wearing a swastika armband…
‘One of the people there, one of the producers perhaps, was watching the rehearsals and became absolutely, utterly furious that I should even be allowed to wear that. There was a big discussion and it ended-up that I wasn’t willing to change the armband and they wouldn’t let me on if I wore it. The Pistols were saying they wouldn’t play unless I was allowed on, so we were at a total impasse. It went on like this for a long time until the only thing that we could come up with was that I’d put some tape over it. You could still see the armband and it kind of made a statement in itself, because you could still see what it was even though the actual symbol was covered. But even before they were about to start filming, I was warned that if I tried to rip-off the tape, they would stop the show and that would be it, the film would never go out. So it wasn’t a case of me just pretending to put some tape over it, it really was something that I had to do otherwise the bands’ whole performance wouldn’t have happened. And I’m glad I did it because I still think that was probably the best performance by the Pistols ever filmed on TV.’
Obviously, wearing a swastika now would be viewed in quite a different way than it was in the Seventies. Looking back at that event, what are your thoughts about it now ?
‘I think we wore those kind of things because we were trying to say, we don’t need your kind of symbolism. That’s how it was meant. If it’s been misinterpreted, then I’m afraid that’s just people who can’t understand what it was there for. In my mind, it was to demystify it. Nobody in their right mind would agree with what had gone on in Germany… I really can’t believe that there are people now who seriously pretend that those things never happened. You can hardly believe that people like that even exist and they can’t even be mentally rational. But I wore things like that to demystify the symbol and to cut those taboos by saying, we don’t need this. It’s just a symbol and it shouldn’t be given that power over people. It should mean nothing. It’s the same way that swear words stop meaning anything when they’re being used all the time. Or even words like ‘love’ and ‘hate’. They should be used more sparingly, you shouldn’t be saying things, ‘I love ketchup’. People should try to use their language more specifically and in a more powerful way.’
‘Oh, yeah, I did. Particularly Simon Barker, Sioux and Steve Severin. We had a flat at Buckingham Gate and, much like the shop, it was a place where everyone took ideas from each other, so it was a really interesting place to be in. It was as much a place where we could talk to other people as it was just a place to live, a bit like those old cafes where philosophers used to gather. The shop was much the same thing, it had a great vibe to it and it inspired a lot of ideas from people as they learned from each other. The thing was, there were lots of bands that I went to see and, in retrospect, I’ve seen photo’s of me there at the gigs to prove that I was there, but it was all like a whirlwind really. I don’t particularly remember going to see any band more than once, but I was always out and gigs and parties.’
You accompanied the Pistols when they went up to Manchester to appear on ‘So It Goes’ at the invite of Tony Wilson, but there was some controversy when you were due to introduce the band and the studio objected to you wearing a swastika armband…
‘One of the people there, one of the producers perhaps, was watching the rehearsals and became absolutely, utterly furious that I should even be allowed to wear that. There was a big discussion and it ended-up that I wasn’t willing to change the armband and they wouldn’t let me on if I wore it. The Pistols were saying they wouldn’t play unless I was allowed on, so we were at a total impasse. It went on like this for a long time until the only thing that we could come up with was that I’d put some tape over it. You could still see the armband and it kind of made a statement in itself, because you could still see what it was even though the actual symbol was covered. But even before they were about to start filming, I was warned that if I tried to rip-off the tape, they would stop the show and that would be it, the film would never go out. So it wasn’t a case of me just pretending to put some tape over it, it really was something that I had to do otherwise the bands’ whole performance wouldn’t have happened. And I’m glad I did it because I still think that was probably the best performance by the Pistols ever filmed on TV.’
Obviously, wearing a swastika now would be viewed in quite a different way than it was in the Seventies. Looking back at that event, what are your thoughts about it now ?
‘I think we wore those kind of things because we were trying to say, we don’t need your kind of symbolism. That’s how it was meant. If it’s been misinterpreted, then I’m afraid that’s just people who can’t understand what it was there for. In my mind, it was to demystify it. Nobody in their right mind would agree with what had gone on in Germany… I really can’t believe that there are people now who seriously pretend that those things never happened. You can hardly believe that people like that even exist and they can’t even be mentally rational. But I wore things like that to demystify the symbol and to cut those taboos by saying, we don’t need this. It’s just a symbol and it shouldn’t be given that power over people. It should mean nothing. It’s the same way that swear words stop meaning anything when they’re being used all the time. Or even words like ‘love’ and ‘hate’. They should be used more sparingly, you shouldn’t be saying things, ‘I love ketchup’. People should try to use their language more specifically and in a more powerful way.’
Of course, the bands’ appearance on TV with Bill Grundy was destined to become much more infamous. It was set-up at short notice and Malcolm arranged for several fans to be present while it was filmed. Looking back, I’m surprised that you weren’t asked along…
‘I was ill on that day ! Malcolm actually called me but I was feeling poorly and I just wasn’t able to go, so I arranged for Simon Barker to go along and I loaned him my ‘Anarchy’ shirt to wear.’
That interview obviously brought the Sex Pistols to the attention of the mainstream, but do you think the way that it happened was a good thing in the long run ?
‘At first, I think everyone thought it would all be alright, but it very quickly became not alright. It made the band, and particularly John Lydon, into public enemies. It may have brought them to the forefront, but I don’t think it did them many favours. I mean, it was Bill Grundy who started the whole thing off when they’d left the band getting drunk in the green room before the interview. That’s the way they used to do it in those days, to try and get people softened up before they went on the show. Bill Grundy was also drunk himself and didn’t even want to do the interview. He was annoyed that he suddenly had the Pistols on the show instead of Queen.’
One of the funny things about that interview, which never seems to get mentioned, is that several of the things that Steve said were actually taken from comedy sources, things that most teenage school kids would have known at the time… ‘You Dirty Old Man’ was virtually a catchphrase from ‘Steptoe & Son’, while ‘You dirty fucker’ was borrowed from the ‘Derek & Clive’ tapes…
‘Well, ‘Steptoe’ was certainly very popular on TV at the time and the ‘Derek & Clive’ recordings were around, although not so well known. Although Adam and I virtually grew up listening to Derek and Clive and even now, we’ll be on the phone and one of us will say something and we’ll both start quoting it all over again ! Funnily enough, Peter Cook had been at the studio for the ‘So It Goes’ recording and he had loved the Pistols. He loved the chaos and energy of it. Clive James was also there, but he was really straight and just didn’t get it. I’ve actually heard people say that day was the end of his career, because he just didn’t get it anymore. He became an old man on that day, because he was complaining about everything, whereas Peter Cook was all over the place and really into it. At one point, I remember shouting over to him, ‘We’re out of fags, Peter !’ and he shouted back, ‘Oh, fucking Hell !’ before lobbing a packet of Dunhills across the studio to us !’
‘I was ill on that day ! Malcolm actually called me but I was feeling poorly and I just wasn’t able to go, so I arranged for Simon Barker to go along and I loaned him my ‘Anarchy’ shirt to wear.’
That interview obviously brought the Sex Pistols to the attention of the mainstream, but do you think the way that it happened was a good thing in the long run ?
‘At first, I think everyone thought it would all be alright, but it very quickly became not alright. It made the band, and particularly John Lydon, into public enemies. It may have brought them to the forefront, but I don’t think it did them many favours. I mean, it was Bill Grundy who started the whole thing off when they’d left the band getting drunk in the green room before the interview. That’s the way they used to do it in those days, to try and get people softened up before they went on the show. Bill Grundy was also drunk himself and didn’t even want to do the interview. He was annoyed that he suddenly had the Pistols on the show instead of Queen.’
One of the funny things about that interview, which never seems to get mentioned, is that several of the things that Steve said were actually taken from comedy sources, things that most teenage school kids would have known at the time… ‘You Dirty Old Man’ was virtually a catchphrase from ‘Steptoe & Son’, while ‘You dirty fucker’ was borrowed from the ‘Derek & Clive’ tapes…
‘Well, ‘Steptoe’ was certainly very popular on TV at the time and the ‘Derek & Clive’ recordings were around, although not so well known. Although Adam and I virtually grew up listening to Derek and Clive and even now, we’ll be on the phone and one of us will say something and we’ll both start quoting it all over again ! Funnily enough, Peter Cook had been at the studio for the ‘So It Goes’ recording and he had loved the Pistols. He loved the chaos and energy of it. Clive James was also there, but he was really straight and just didn’t get it. I’ve actually heard people say that day was the end of his career, because he just didn’t get it anymore. He became an old man on that day, because he was complaining about everything, whereas Peter Cook was all over the place and really into it. At one point, I remember shouting over to him, ‘We’re out of fags, Peter !’ and he shouted back, ‘Oh, fucking Hell !’ before lobbing a packet of Dunhills across the studio to us !’
Here's a link to see both Peter Cook (Clive) and the Sex Pistols on 'So It Goes', 1976.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=YH8w9mK96Yc
www.youtube.com/watch?v=YH8w9mK96Yc
One of the weekly magazines around that time reported that you went over to New York early in 1977 to do some modelling. How did that come about?
‘No, I didn’t go over there for modelling. I don’t know where that came from ? I went over because I had a friend who lived there and he used to buy stuff from the shop to sell it at a place called ‘Ians’ on Grove Street in Greenwich Village. I went over to visit him, but his girlfriend was also there at the same time and unfortunately she didn’t like the fact that he’d invited me over there. So when I arrived, it turned out that I couldn’t stay at his apartment after all. He apologised and said that he’d find somewhere for me to stay and we could still meet up, but he ended up booking a room for me at the Chelsea Hotel, where I had my introduction to New York cockroaches ! But someone else asked if I’d like to visit The Factory while I was there, so I got to meet Andy Warhol. I went up there and talked with him and we had breakfast together. We actually got on really well and, actually, he did take some photo’s of me, so perhaps that’s where the modelling-story came from, even though it wasn’t something that had been set-up. I met him three more times after that, twice in London and once at an Art show in Detroit, and I always enjoyed his company. He was very, very inquisitive and also very kind.’
You also met Adam Ant while you were working at Sex and eventually became involved with his band. He even wrote a song about how he met you, ‘Sent a Letter to Jordan’…
‘Yes, that’s right. In fact, I’ve still got the letters that he sent to me, before we even met. It was a bit of a mystery, even though they were never creepy or anything. But one day, he came into the shop and while he was there, Michael Collins sussed-out that he was the person that had been sending the letters. This was in the days when there were two post deliveries a day, morning and afternoon, so I’d be getting two of these letters every day ! He actually used to hang around the shop quite a bit, so one day, out of the blue, Michael just asked him, ‘Are you the chap whose been writing to Jordan ?’ And, of course, he was, but I think the thing was that he’d come to see me as a kind of living epitome of all the lovely artwork that he liked, the Allen Jones stuff and all of that. He thought I was a walking version of that kind of thing and he loved it. I liked him straightaway but he was actually quite shy, and still is, really. But he’d seen the Sex Pistols at their very first gig and decided that his life had been changed forever. He asked me if I would manage his new band so I went to see them at the Man in The Moon one evening. It was actually a disaster, everything blew up while they were playing and there were probably only four or five people left in the room by the time they finished. But that didn’t matter because he’d been wearing a leather mask, looked really, really good and he also sang really well. So I said I’d give it a crack… Obviously, I didn’t have any money behind me, as most managers would have, so it was all just hounding other bands for support gigs. But there was such a good camaraderie between bands at that time, people like X-Ray Spex and The Slits, so we’d all just play together in different clubs and everyone would end up at the same place.’
‘No, I didn’t go over there for modelling. I don’t know where that came from ? I went over because I had a friend who lived there and he used to buy stuff from the shop to sell it at a place called ‘Ians’ on Grove Street in Greenwich Village. I went over to visit him, but his girlfriend was also there at the same time and unfortunately she didn’t like the fact that he’d invited me over there. So when I arrived, it turned out that I couldn’t stay at his apartment after all. He apologised and said that he’d find somewhere for me to stay and we could still meet up, but he ended up booking a room for me at the Chelsea Hotel, where I had my introduction to New York cockroaches ! But someone else asked if I’d like to visit The Factory while I was there, so I got to meet Andy Warhol. I went up there and talked with him and we had breakfast together. We actually got on really well and, actually, he did take some photo’s of me, so perhaps that’s where the modelling-story came from, even though it wasn’t something that had been set-up. I met him three more times after that, twice in London and once at an Art show in Detroit, and I always enjoyed his company. He was very, very inquisitive and also very kind.’
You also met Adam Ant while you were working at Sex and eventually became involved with his band. He even wrote a song about how he met you, ‘Sent a Letter to Jordan’…
‘Yes, that’s right. In fact, I’ve still got the letters that he sent to me, before we even met. It was a bit of a mystery, even though they were never creepy or anything. But one day, he came into the shop and while he was there, Michael Collins sussed-out that he was the person that had been sending the letters. This was in the days when there were two post deliveries a day, morning and afternoon, so I’d be getting two of these letters every day ! He actually used to hang around the shop quite a bit, so one day, out of the blue, Michael just asked him, ‘Are you the chap whose been writing to Jordan ?’ And, of course, he was, but I think the thing was that he’d come to see me as a kind of living epitome of all the lovely artwork that he liked, the Allen Jones stuff and all of that. He thought I was a walking version of that kind of thing and he loved it. I liked him straightaway but he was actually quite shy, and still is, really. But he’d seen the Sex Pistols at their very first gig and decided that his life had been changed forever. He asked me if I would manage his new band so I went to see them at the Man in The Moon one evening. It was actually a disaster, everything blew up while they were playing and there were probably only four or five people left in the room by the time they finished. But that didn’t matter because he’d been wearing a leather mask, looked really, really good and he also sang really well. So I said I’d give it a crack… Obviously, I didn’t have any money behind me, as most managers would have, so it was all just hounding other bands for support gigs. But there was such a good camaraderie between bands at that time, people like X-Ray Spex and The Slits, so we’d all just play together in different clubs and everyone would end up at the same place.’
And you even used to join the band onstage to sing the song ‘Lou’…
‘Yes, I did. It was something we’d written together in a pub, on the back of a serviette. I know that’s a bit of a cliché, but it really is true ! It all came about because I went to see a gig by Lou Reed and he was absolutely stoned and useless. The tickets had been really expensive and I’d really been looking forward to seeing him, but my dreams had been completely shattered. So I wrote a very painful song about it. It was very emotional for me !’
‘Yes, I did. It was something we’d written together in a pub, on the back of a serviette. I know that’s a bit of a cliché, but it really is true ! It all came about because I went to see a gig by Lou Reed and he was absolutely stoned and useless. The tickets had been really expensive and I’d really been looking forward to seeing him, but my dreams had been completely shattered. So I wrote a very painful song about it. It was very emotional for me !’
Here's some rare footage of Jordan performing with the Ants...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ywILZgNE7M
www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ywILZgNE7M
Did you ever consider singing any other songs ?
‘No, not really. In fact, I liked the idea that I’d just come on, sing that one song and then walk straight-off. If there’s any footage of that song being played live, you’d see that was what I would always do. I liked the idea that it was really short and to the point. I meant it to be like that, from the heart. Punk was perfect like that. I like the idea that the original thing only really happened for a short time and died quite quickly, so it remained powerful and couldn’t become diffused into nothing.’
During 1977, you acted-in and were involved with Derek Jarman’s film, ‘Jubilee’, which also featured Adam & The Ants, Toyah, Wayne/Jayne County and others…
‘Well, I wanted the Ants to be in that from the start, as soon as I became involved. I think Derek had seen me in the street, one day, at Victoria Station. He just understood what he was looking at, decided to get to know me and eventually asked me to help him with his film. So I helped him to bring the musical aspect together, although no-one has ever really acknowledged my part in it until Jayne did on a recent radio show. She said that Derek and I had come to see her audition at Dingwalls and if it hadn’t have been for me, she probably wouldn’t have been in the film at all.’
Were you tempted to get involved with more film work after ‘Jubilee’ ?
‘After it was released, Malcolm kept going on that I should try to make a career out of doing those sort of things, you know, some acting, some singing, just becoming a public face for Punk, really. But I was uncomfortable with that and I didn’t really want to do it. I think I still would feel that way, so I only ever did ‘Jubilee’ and I still think that was great. The only other thing I was involved with was actually a little bit before ‘Jubilee’ and was a short-film by John Sansom called ‘Dressing For Pleasure’. It was a documentary about rubberwear and I still think it’s so good… you can see it on Youtube now. Malcolm, Helen and I are all in it, with various rubberwear.’
‘No, not really. In fact, I liked the idea that I’d just come on, sing that one song and then walk straight-off. If there’s any footage of that song being played live, you’d see that was what I would always do. I liked the idea that it was really short and to the point. I meant it to be like that, from the heart. Punk was perfect like that. I like the idea that the original thing only really happened for a short time and died quite quickly, so it remained powerful and couldn’t become diffused into nothing.’
During 1977, you acted-in and were involved with Derek Jarman’s film, ‘Jubilee’, which also featured Adam & The Ants, Toyah, Wayne/Jayne County and others…
‘Well, I wanted the Ants to be in that from the start, as soon as I became involved. I think Derek had seen me in the street, one day, at Victoria Station. He just understood what he was looking at, decided to get to know me and eventually asked me to help him with his film. So I helped him to bring the musical aspect together, although no-one has ever really acknowledged my part in it until Jayne did on a recent radio show. She said that Derek and I had come to see her audition at Dingwalls and if it hadn’t have been for me, she probably wouldn’t have been in the film at all.’
Were you tempted to get involved with more film work after ‘Jubilee’ ?
‘After it was released, Malcolm kept going on that I should try to make a career out of doing those sort of things, you know, some acting, some singing, just becoming a public face for Punk, really. But I was uncomfortable with that and I didn’t really want to do it. I think I still would feel that way, so I only ever did ‘Jubilee’ and I still think that was great. The only other thing I was involved with was actually a little bit before ‘Jubilee’ and was a short-film by John Sansom called ‘Dressing For Pleasure’. It was a documentary about rubberwear and I still think it’s so good… you can see it on Youtube now. Malcolm, Helen and I are all in it, with various rubberwear.’
Watch 'Dressing for Pleasure'...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k8uHcc3I-Y
www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k8uHcc3I-Y
You continued managing the Ants until early 1978,. Obviously, you’ve remained close-friends with Adam, so why did you decide to stop working with them ?
‘Well, the ‘Jubilee’ film had really got in the way of things. My career got in the way of the job I wanted to do for the Ants, really, and it just became impossible. I was still working at the shop, we’d done ‘Jubilee’ and I was going all over the place. In the end, we just agreed on our parting, if you like.’
One of the lesser known stories about you is that Darby Crash, singer of The Germs, came to stay with you when he visited England in 1980, shortly before his death. How did you get to know him ?
‘I got to know him through somebody in Los Angeles, who I’d previously gone to visit. Darby was already a massive Ants fan and he wanted to come over to England, so my friend got in touch and asked if it was alright if Darby stayed with me. So I said, of course, and he came to visit. We went to a few Ants gigs while he was here… there’s a really lovely, colour shot of me, Amanda Donahue and Darby together at a party. When he went back to America, that was when he had his hair cut into a Mohawk ! I’ve seen stories that he didn’t get into the Ants until he came to England, but he was already a big fan when he came to stay with me. He knew all about the ‘Dirk Wears White Sox’ phase and also loved the new stuff they were doing with Marco. I really liked him, but I think he was a very complicated character. He was very assertive… I have a Germs burn here on my hand that he gave me. It’s pretty old now, but I can still see where it is. He was just insistent that I had to have that initiation… he held the cigarette and I had to shout when it started to hurt too much. He was absolutely adamant that I had to do it. But he was also a very sensitive man and, as I said, very complicated. One of my favourite shots of him is where he’s just sitting on the floor of a stage, looking completely out of it, but in his hand he has a piece of paper with his lyrics on it. It just looks fabulous.’
‘Well, the ‘Jubilee’ film had really got in the way of things. My career got in the way of the job I wanted to do for the Ants, really, and it just became impossible. I was still working at the shop, we’d done ‘Jubilee’ and I was going all over the place. In the end, we just agreed on our parting, if you like.’
One of the lesser known stories about you is that Darby Crash, singer of The Germs, came to stay with you when he visited England in 1980, shortly before his death. How did you get to know him ?
‘I got to know him through somebody in Los Angeles, who I’d previously gone to visit. Darby was already a massive Ants fan and he wanted to come over to England, so my friend got in touch and asked if it was alright if Darby stayed with me. So I said, of course, and he came to visit. We went to a few Ants gigs while he was here… there’s a really lovely, colour shot of me, Amanda Donahue and Darby together at a party. When he went back to America, that was when he had his hair cut into a Mohawk ! I’ve seen stories that he didn’t get into the Ants until he came to England, but he was already a big fan when he came to stay with me. He knew all about the ‘Dirk Wears White Sox’ phase and also loved the new stuff they were doing with Marco. I really liked him, but I think he was a very complicated character. He was very assertive… I have a Germs burn here on my hand that he gave me. It’s pretty old now, but I can still see where it is. He was just insistent that I had to have that initiation… he held the cigarette and I had to shout when it started to hurt too much. He was absolutely adamant that I had to do it. But he was also a very sensitive man and, as I said, very complicated. One of my favourite shots of him is where he’s just sitting on the floor of a stage, looking completely out of it, but in his hand he has a piece of paper with his lyrics on it. It just looks fabulous.’
During the Eighties, you pretty much disappeared from the public eye…
‘Yeah, I dropped-out to save my bacon, really. That world in London had gone beyond what I was interested in and in way, it helped to maintain the way people thought of me. Obviously, I didn’t do it for that reason, but because people stopped seeing me, or pictures of me, it meant those images retained their integrity. I got into veterinary work, plus breeding and showing cats. I’ve had some real, top-winning pussy cats over the years ! I’ve always loved cats, even when I was living in that flat at Buckingham Gate and I had Burmese cats with me. There’s even a picture which Simon Barker took, of me in front of a big Sex Pistols poster with my cats. I think cats just seem to have the right attitude… Burmese cats, especially. They’re the Punks of the Cat world ! So I started work as a veterinary nurse at a time when you just learned what you were doing as you did the job. I’m not qualified as such, but I have all the knowledge, which is the important thing. After 25 years of doing it, I would hope I know what I’m doing ! And I was also looking after my Mum and Dad as they were getting on a bit. But I still kept in touch with a lot of my old friends, mainly Adam but also Vivienne and Malcolm… maybe not so much Malcolm, as he was always away, travelling, but I was always in touch with Vivienne.’
‘Yeah, I dropped-out to save my bacon, really. That world in London had gone beyond what I was interested in and in way, it helped to maintain the way people thought of me. Obviously, I didn’t do it for that reason, but because people stopped seeing me, or pictures of me, it meant those images retained their integrity. I got into veterinary work, plus breeding and showing cats. I’ve had some real, top-winning pussy cats over the years ! I’ve always loved cats, even when I was living in that flat at Buckingham Gate and I had Burmese cats with me. There’s even a picture which Simon Barker took, of me in front of a big Sex Pistols poster with my cats. I think cats just seem to have the right attitude… Burmese cats, especially. They’re the Punks of the Cat world ! So I started work as a veterinary nurse at a time when you just learned what you were doing as you did the job. I’m not qualified as such, but I have all the knowledge, which is the important thing. After 25 years of doing it, I would hope I know what I’m doing ! And I was also looking after my Mum and Dad as they were getting on a bit. But I still kept in touch with a lot of my old friends, mainly Adam but also Vivienne and Malcolm… maybe not so much Malcolm, as he was always away, travelling, but I was always in touch with Vivienne.’
How did you feel about the recent ‘40th Anniversary of Punk’ ? You were saying earlier that you liked the fact that the original scene only lasted for a very short time, but obviously a lot of things have developed from that and forged their own path, while some of the original bands are still around and still doing pretty well…
‘The original thing was really all about young people and definitely not about nostalgia, but I think there’s also a big difference between nostalgia and history. I think that certain moments in history should be remembered because they can still teach you how you should or shouldn’t do things now, and give you some idea of what went on. History is very important as a document and these things should be recorded. So I still don’t particularly like the idea of nostalgia, but I certainly don’t think you should try to wipe-out the history of something like Punk.’
One of the things that people often comment about you is that you’re often not the character they expect you to be. Some of those original, iconic images of you do come across as intimidating or scary, almost like a dominatrix figure. But meeting you now, people usually comment how friendly and down-to-earth you are. Do you find that misconception amusing ?
‘Yeah ! I mean, I can still be like that if I need to be, but only if someone deserves it. The other thing is that people often assume that I’m going to be a lot taller… I did an interview with Lauren Laverne on Radio Six and when I walked in, she said, ‘I don’t believe it ! I thought you were going to be, like, 5’10” or 5’11” !’ It’s as if my image has grown into something that people assume from seeing the old pictures, but I’m not really like that at all. But, as I said, I can be when I need to be ! So don’t mess with me, hahaha !’
‘The original thing was really all about young people and definitely not about nostalgia, but I think there’s also a big difference between nostalgia and history. I think that certain moments in history should be remembered because they can still teach you how you should or shouldn’t do things now, and give you some idea of what went on. History is very important as a document and these things should be recorded. So I still don’t particularly like the idea of nostalgia, but I certainly don’t think you should try to wipe-out the history of something like Punk.’
One of the things that people often comment about you is that you’re often not the character they expect you to be. Some of those original, iconic images of you do come across as intimidating or scary, almost like a dominatrix figure. But meeting you now, people usually comment how friendly and down-to-earth you are. Do you find that misconception amusing ?
‘Yeah ! I mean, I can still be like that if I need to be, but only if someone deserves it. The other thing is that people often assume that I’m going to be a lot taller… I did an interview with Lauren Laverne on Radio Six and when I walked in, she said, ‘I don’t believe it ! I thought you were going to be, like, 5’10” or 5’11” !’ It’s as if my image has grown into something that people assume from seeing the old pictures, but I’m not really like that at all. But, as I said, I can be when I need to be ! So don’t mess with me, hahaha !’
We ended the interview on that appropriate note as it was time to stroll down the road to the Johnny Moped gig. As she mentioned during the interview, Jordan is currently working on her biography, together with the writer Cathi Unsworth, and I believe it will be published in 2019. Trust me, it’s going to be a very interesting and entertaining book, from someone who was right in the centre of much that happened within the original UK punk scene. Be sure to keep pay attention and get a copy as soon as you can.
This interview is dedicated to my old friend Peter Upton, who really should have been here to take part in it.
This interview is dedicated to my old friend Peter Upton, who really should have been here to take part in it.