The death of Pete Shelley in December 2018 came as a real shock to the many Buzzcocks fans around the world. Hit singles like ‘What Do I Get’, ‘Ever Fallen in Love’ and ‘Promises’ have retained their vitality over the years and regularly appear on TV commercials and film soundtracks, keeping them familiar to a wider audience and ensuring that they remain in the public consciousness. In an odd quirk of fate, the band had already announced a concert to be held at the Royal Albert Hall in June 2019, alongside the Skids and Penetration. As circumstances turned out, the gig became a tribute to Pete and, with many guests joining the band onstage, it was an appropriate celebration of his life and music.
Many, myself included, thought this concert would also mark the end of the band. However, it soon became known that founding member Steve Diggle intended to continue. There were doubts as to how well this would actually work, but alongside the bands’ current rhythm section (Danny Farrant and Chris Remmington) they released a new single, ‘Gotta Get Better’ at the end of the year and played a series of gigs, accompanied by new guitarist Mani Perazzoli. The response to both the single and the concerts was very positive, with many commenting that the band were as powerful and entertaining as ever. Obviously, it was never going to be the same without Pete, but the consensus was that the band had found a positive way forward.
Frustratingly, just as they were gearing-up to tour and introduce the new line-up to the public, Covid 19 arrived and put all plans on indefinite hold. Fortunately, during this time the band was able to keep its’ profile high with a series of reissues and the release of ‘The 1991 Demo Album’, the previously-unavailable recordings made by the band soon after their reformation. More recently, Steve had also worked with Cherry Red records to compile ‘Late For The Train’, a 6CD boxset of live recordings and radio sessions, documenting the band since their reformation. For any fan, this is going to be a pretty essential purchase. With its’ release due in January 2021, I was able to organise a telephone interview with Steve. There’s plenty to talk about, but firstly I wondered how, as a musician who’s spent most of his life playing live, he’s been coping during the recent lockdowns…
Many, myself included, thought this concert would also mark the end of the band. However, it soon became known that founding member Steve Diggle intended to continue. There were doubts as to how well this would actually work, but alongside the bands’ current rhythm section (Danny Farrant and Chris Remmington) they released a new single, ‘Gotta Get Better’ at the end of the year and played a series of gigs, accompanied by new guitarist Mani Perazzoli. The response to both the single and the concerts was very positive, with many commenting that the band were as powerful and entertaining as ever. Obviously, it was never going to be the same without Pete, but the consensus was that the band had found a positive way forward.
Frustratingly, just as they were gearing-up to tour and introduce the new line-up to the public, Covid 19 arrived and put all plans on indefinite hold. Fortunately, during this time the band was able to keep its’ profile high with a series of reissues and the release of ‘The 1991 Demo Album’, the previously-unavailable recordings made by the band soon after their reformation. More recently, Steve had also worked with Cherry Red records to compile ‘Late For The Train’, a 6CD boxset of live recordings and radio sessions, documenting the band since their reformation. For any fan, this is going to be a pretty essential purchase. With its’ release due in January 2021, I was able to organise a telephone interview with Steve. There’s plenty to talk about, but firstly I wondered how, as a musician who’s spent most of his life playing live, he’s been coping during the recent lockdowns…
‘It’s been alright, really. I’ve had to deal with it, just like everybody else. I’ve actually been writing a load of new songs… I think there’s enough ready for two albums, now! But it’s been a bit weird, because we played the gig at the Royal Albert Hall, which originally was going to be with Pete, but ended up being a memorial for him… After that, we managed to squeeze-in a bunch of gigs with the new line-up around the UK just before Christmas and they all went really well. Every gig was fantastic and the response was really good so, as we got in to the New Year, we were starting to book tours in the States, as well as being booked to play at Punk Rock Bowling in Las Vegas. We also started to book more gigs around the UK, but it was just then that the Covid thing came along, so everything’s been put on ice. We’ve been grounded, as far as playing any gigs… and I can’t even go to a pub, so I’ve just ended-up writing a load of songs…
This must be the longest break without playing live that you’ve ever had…
‘Absolutely! I mean, I’ve toured every year for, like, 43 years, but this year there’s been nothing and it’s kind of weird because when it started, we had no idea how long it would go on for… We’ve all had to adjust to it. Luckily, I’ve got a studio-room in my house and when it was sunny during the Summer, I’d go out and lay on the sun-bed for a while and then, when I had an idea, I’d go back inside and work on it for a bit. That was actually quite nice… there was nothing else to do, so I could just get on with it. It was good in that way but the whole thing has obviously left a cloud over everybody.’
The thing is, gigs aren’t just about the music, it’s also about meeting people and the social side of it…
‘Oh yeah… I mean, with us, we’ve played thousands of gigs over the years and I’ll admit, there have been times when it has felt like, ‘Here we go again…’ But when something like this virus happens, you realise just how fantastic it is to be able to play for all these different people and share that experience with the crowd. Even while I was writing these new songs, I sometimes couldn’t help but feel, who am I writing them for? It was almost as if I was writing them but I might not get a chance to sing them to an audience. When you’re in that position, you can’t help but realise how important playing live actually is. I mean, the songs may well sound great in a studio, but it’s always so much better when you get to play them in front of people. It’s always been about getting out there and all being together. Meeting up with your mates and sharing the experience with the band and the rest of the crowd. It’s a mutual thing and it’s what really brings the songs to life.’
This must be the longest break without playing live that you’ve ever had…
‘Absolutely! I mean, I’ve toured every year for, like, 43 years, but this year there’s been nothing and it’s kind of weird because when it started, we had no idea how long it would go on for… We’ve all had to adjust to it. Luckily, I’ve got a studio-room in my house and when it was sunny during the Summer, I’d go out and lay on the sun-bed for a while and then, when I had an idea, I’d go back inside and work on it for a bit. That was actually quite nice… there was nothing else to do, so I could just get on with it. It was good in that way but the whole thing has obviously left a cloud over everybody.’
The thing is, gigs aren’t just about the music, it’s also about meeting people and the social side of it…
‘Oh yeah… I mean, with us, we’ve played thousands of gigs over the years and I’ll admit, there have been times when it has felt like, ‘Here we go again…’ But when something like this virus happens, you realise just how fantastic it is to be able to play for all these different people and share that experience with the crowd. Even while I was writing these new songs, I sometimes couldn’t help but feel, who am I writing them for? It was almost as if I was writing them but I might not get a chance to sing them to an audience. When you’re in that position, you can’t help but realise how important playing live actually is. I mean, the songs may well sound great in a studio, but it’s always so much better when you get to play them in front of people. It’s always been about getting out there and all being together. Meeting up with your mates and sharing the experience with the band and the rest of the crowd. It’s a mutual thing and it’s what really brings the songs to life.’
As a songwriter, playing live also gives you an opportunity to see how well the individual songs are working. You don’t really get the same type of feedback if you’re only working in a studio…
‘Yeah, that’s always important for new songs. When we played live before last Christmas, we played some of the new songs as well as all the older classics and they all went down really well. We put a new single out, ‘Gotta Get Better’, because I wanted to have something new for the upcoming tours. I was thinking that, well, we’ve got a massive back catalogue, but I really wanted to have something that reflected the new set-up and the new spirit of the band. We needed a new single, at least, to justify where we’re at now. I didn’t want us to be one of those bands who just go out and play all the old hits, knowing that’s all it’s ever going to be. Unfortunately, it was quite a limited edition and it sold-out pretty quickly, but people seemed to really get into it, which was a very positive sign. I think Buzzcocks have always been about moving forward and while we’ve always been happy to play the old classics, it was also important to have those new songs in there. It showed that the band is still an ongoing thing, which is definitely important to me.’
‘Yeah, that’s always important for new songs. When we played live before last Christmas, we played some of the new songs as well as all the older classics and they all went down really well. We put a new single out, ‘Gotta Get Better’, because I wanted to have something new for the upcoming tours. I was thinking that, well, we’ve got a massive back catalogue, but I really wanted to have something that reflected the new set-up and the new spirit of the band. We needed a new single, at least, to justify where we’re at now. I didn’t want us to be one of those bands who just go out and play all the old hits, knowing that’s all it’s ever going to be. Unfortunately, it was quite a limited edition and it sold-out pretty quickly, but people seemed to really get into it, which was a very positive sign. I think Buzzcocks have always been about moving forward and while we’ve always been happy to play the old classics, it was also important to have those new songs in there. It showed that the band is still an ongoing thing, which is definitely important to me.’
When Pete died, it must have been a massive shock for you after working with him for so long, but as you said, the Royal Albert Hall gig, which had already been scheduled, was changed into a fitting tribute. A lot of people thought that it might also prove to be Buzzcocks final performance, but obviously you’ve decided to continue. At what point did you decide to carry on?
‘Well, Pete died just before Christmas in 2018 and the Royal Albert Hall gig wasn’t until June 2019, so there were some hard months before we were due to play. It had all been set-up before he died and we were supposed to be there together to do that show as the Buzzcocks, so it was a really hard time for me. We’d spent the best part of 43 years playing together… we’d started with almost nothing and had no idea what was going to happen, you know, all that stuff. We’d shared some great musical moments together, in the studio and on stage, so personally, we were very close. When we lost Pete it wasn’t just about the band, I’d lost my mate and I was devastated. It was very hard to get over and I’m glad there were quite a few months before we were due to play the gig. It gave us time to get ourselves together and arrange for all the different guests to come and join us. For a long time, that gig was the only thing we were thinking about, but once it was over, we had to decide, what are we going to do next? Quite a few people were telling us that we should carry-on, while others were saying, no, that should be the end of it and all that kind of stuff. But the thing is, Chris and Danny have both been in the band for more than ten years now and even though we still think of them as the new boys, they’re both an important part of the band. I felt that I didn’t want Buzzcocks to stop because I didn’t want it to die and just become something in the past, while the three of us are still in the land of the living. I spoke to our manager and said that I wanted to carry on because it was a way to keep the songs alive, but it wasn’t until we played those gigs at the end of last year that we found out that a lot of people were actually happy that we’d decided to do it. Obviously there were some doubters and a few people putting negative stuff on the internet, but the reviews were all really good and one of them had said that we’d ‘destroyed the doubters’, which I thought that was great! Wherever we played, people came to see us and really got into it. We were on fire for those gigs… We started the sets with ‘What Do I Get?’ and by the time we reached the first chorus, it sounded as if the whole audience was singing along with us. I know a lot of people are going to say that it’s just not the same, but we can’t bring Pete back. We’d all love to do that if we could, but it’s not going to happen. So I think, after playing those gigs and releasing the single, people are adjusting to it and realising that this is where we’re at now. I know a lot of people were shocked and devastated when Pete died, I know I was! But since then, people have started to be really positive about what we’re doing and encouraging us to carry on. One of the things that made me decide to carry on was, while we were touring and Pete was still with us, there had been a couple of times when he’d come to see me in private after a gig and he said that he wanted to leave the band. He said that he wanted to retire, but he was happy for me to carry on. At the time, we probably smoked a joint and I’d say, you can’t leave, there’s a lot of work we’ve still got to do! So it didn’t go any further than that and I thought he was just feeling tired out and would be fine again after he’d had a break. But later on, after he died, it actually seemed a bit eerie, because he’d already told me that I should carry on and given me his blessing to do it. I didn’t really think about it too much at the time and just got on with the tour. It wasn’t until later on that I really took it onboard, but it was a bit weird that he’d already told me that I could carry on without him and given me his blessing...'
‘Well, Pete died just before Christmas in 2018 and the Royal Albert Hall gig wasn’t until June 2019, so there were some hard months before we were due to play. It had all been set-up before he died and we were supposed to be there together to do that show as the Buzzcocks, so it was a really hard time for me. We’d spent the best part of 43 years playing together… we’d started with almost nothing and had no idea what was going to happen, you know, all that stuff. We’d shared some great musical moments together, in the studio and on stage, so personally, we were very close. When we lost Pete it wasn’t just about the band, I’d lost my mate and I was devastated. It was very hard to get over and I’m glad there were quite a few months before we were due to play the gig. It gave us time to get ourselves together and arrange for all the different guests to come and join us. For a long time, that gig was the only thing we were thinking about, but once it was over, we had to decide, what are we going to do next? Quite a few people were telling us that we should carry-on, while others were saying, no, that should be the end of it and all that kind of stuff. But the thing is, Chris and Danny have both been in the band for more than ten years now and even though we still think of them as the new boys, they’re both an important part of the band. I felt that I didn’t want Buzzcocks to stop because I didn’t want it to die and just become something in the past, while the three of us are still in the land of the living. I spoke to our manager and said that I wanted to carry on because it was a way to keep the songs alive, but it wasn’t until we played those gigs at the end of last year that we found out that a lot of people were actually happy that we’d decided to do it. Obviously there were some doubters and a few people putting negative stuff on the internet, but the reviews were all really good and one of them had said that we’d ‘destroyed the doubters’, which I thought that was great! Wherever we played, people came to see us and really got into it. We were on fire for those gigs… We started the sets with ‘What Do I Get?’ and by the time we reached the first chorus, it sounded as if the whole audience was singing along with us. I know a lot of people are going to say that it’s just not the same, but we can’t bring Pete back. We’d all love to do that if we could, but it’s not going to happen. So I think, after playing those gigs and releasing the single, people are adjusting to it and realising that this is where we’re at now. I know a lot of people were shocked and devastated when Pete died, I know I was! But since then, people have started to be really positive about what we’re doing and encouraging us to carry on. One of the things that made me decide to carry on was, while we were touring and Pete was still with us, there had been a couple of times when he’d come to see me in private after a gig and he said that he wanted to leave the band. He said that he wanted to retire, but he was happy for me to carry on. At the time, we probably smoked a joint and I’d say, you can’t leave, there’s a lot of work we’ve still got to do! So it didn’t go any further than that and I thought he was just feeling tired out and would be fine again after he’d had a break. But later on, after he died, it actually seemed a bit eerie, because he’d already told me that I should carry on and given me his blessing to do it. I didn’t really think about it too much at the time and just got on with the tour. It wasn’t until later on that I really took it onboard, but it was a bit weird that he’d already told me that I could carry on without him and given me his blessing...'
I think the thing is, as Chris and Danny have been playing with the band for so long they’ve become an integral part of it, so as you continue it’s more a case of carrying-on with what you were already doing, rather than trying to recreate something with all-new members…
‘Oh yeah. They’ve played all around the world with Buzzcocks so they really know what the sound is. That’s the important thing and that’s what made it possible for us to carry on. When we decided that we wanted to continue, we knew that the only way we could do it would be by moving forward.’
Of course, some people thought that Buzzcocks would be unable to continue when Howard Devoto left the band in early 1977…
‘Well, that was a bit different because we’d only played ten gigs with Howard and released just the one EP. I remember, he just told me and Pete one day that he’d done what he wanted to do and was leaving… We were shocked but we still wanted to carry on. People were telling us that we shouldn’t try to do it without him, the same way they’ve been telling us that we shouldn’t carry on without Pete. So I’ve seen this happen before and it worked out fine! All I can say to the doubters is, come to one of our gigs and you’ll soon see for yourself. The gigs we played at the end of last year proved it for us and so many people told us afterwards that we’d really nailed it.’
The Royal Albert Hall gig proved to be a fitting tribute for Pete, but having so many guests coming on and off the stage inevitably made it a bit chaotic, unlike a usual Buzzcocks performance. But I think the audience accepted that and the atmosphere really lifted it up to become a very special event…
‘Yeah, there was a lot of love in the room. I mean, I know that I could’ve sung a lot of those songs a lot better than some of the people who did sing them, because I already knew them backwards. But I think it was important to have the other people there to remember Pete and there was so much support from the audience. The only thing I really noticed was that it didn’t have the pace or momentum of a normal Buzzcocks gig, because we had to keep stopping inbetween songs to introduce different people onstage. A usual Buzzcocks gig sets off and there’s no breaks until we finish. We’ve always had those dynamics in our sets, that’s just how we do it. But I knew it would have to be different at the Royal Albert Hall and it took me some time to work out where all the different people would be coming on and going off. I had to make sure that we had the right chemistry between the different singers as well, so it was a very different feeling at that gig and I think most people in the audience understood that. I felt honoured myself, because all those people were there to pay their respects to Pete and all that kind of stuff. The atmosphere was unbelievable.’
Some of the promo-photos released at the time of the recent single only featured you, Chris and Danny, but obviously you also have a new guitarist playing live with the band as well…
‘Yeah, I think that was something we had to do. His name is Mani Perazzoli and he’s only played with us at those shows so far, so it’s still early days yet and we’ll have to see how it works out, but as I said, those gigs were great. He’d actually worked with me on a solo thing that I did, so that’s how I know him. He did really well on those dates, played really well and did great backing vocals, so he’s primed for playing live which is what we really need at the moment.’
‘Oh yeah. They’ve played all around the world with Buzzcocks so they really know what the sound is. That’s the important thing and that’s what made it possible for us to carry on. When we decided that we wanted to continue, we knew that the only way we could do it would be by moving forward.’
Of course, some people thought that Buzzcocks would be unable to continue when Howard Devoto left the band in early 1977…
‘Well, that was a bit different because we’d only played ten gigs with Howard and released just the one EP. I remember, he just told me and Pete one day that he’d done what he wanted to do and was leaving… We were shocked but we still wanted to carry on. People were telling us that we shouldn’t try to do it without him, the same way they’ve been telling us that we shouldn’t carry on without Pete. So I’ve seen this happen before and it worked out fine! All I can say to the doubters is, come to one of our gigs and you’ll soon see for yourself. The gigs we played at the end of last year proved it for us and so many people told us afterwards that we’d really nailed it.’
The Royal Albert Hall gig proved to be a fitting tribute for Pete, but having so many guests coming on and off the stage inevitably made it a bit chaotic, unlike a usual Buzzcocks performance. But I think the audience accepted that and the atmosphere really lifted it up to become a very special event…
‘Yeah, there was a lot of love in the room. I mean, I know that I could’ve sung a lot of those songs a lot better than some of the people who did sing them, because I already knew them backwards. But I think it was important to have the other people there to remember Pete and there was so much support from the audience. The only thing I really noticed was that it didn’t have the pace or momentum of a normal Buzzcocks gig, because we had to keep stopping inbetween songs to introduce different people onstage. A usual Buzzcocks gig sets off and there’s no breaks until we finish. We’ve always had those dynamics in our sets, that’s just how we do it. But I knew it would have to be different at the Royal Albert Hall and it took me some time to work out where all the different people would be coming on and going off. I had to make sure that we had the right chemistry between the different singers as well, so it was a very different feeling at that gig and I think most people in the audience understood that. I felt honoured myself, because all those people were there to pay their respects to Pete and all that kind of stuff. The atmosphere was unbelievable.’
Some of the promo-photos released at the time of the recent single only featured you, Chris and Danny, but obviously you also have a new guitarist playing live with the band as well…
‘Yeah, I think that was something we had to do. His name is Mani Perazzoli and he’s only played with us at those shows so far, so it’s still early days yet and we’ll have to see how it works out, but as I said, those gigs were great. He’d actually worked with me on a solo thing that I did, so that’s how I know him. He did really well on those dates, played really well and did great backing vocals, so he’s primed for playing live which is what we really need at the moment.’
You and Pete had pretty different voices so I wondered if you’ve had any difficulties singing the songs that Pete used to sing?
‘Not really… I can get up there. I mean, if you listen to my voice on ‘Autonomy’, it’s pretty high, but I sort of changed my style after that because we wanted to have something to contrast with Pete’s vocals. I ended-up going for a harder, rock’n’roll style, although I think I smoothed that out a bit on our later albums. But originally, I deliberately went the other way to Pete so that we’d compliment each other and didn’t sound the same. So I didn’t have a problem taking-on those songs and, in fact, I’ve even been able to get up to ‘Why Can’t I Touch It?’ which even Pete couldn’t manage at times! But I didn’t just want to do an impression of Pete, so I’ve been pulling it down a bit with some songs. I felt that I had to make them my own rather than just an imitation. I mean, we’re both from the North and we’ve got similar accents so it works out… it’s not as if it’s someone from London trying to do it with a Southern accent! Also, we both sang backing vocals for each others songs for 40 years, so I know how to harmonise his songs and he knew how to harmonise mine, so I already knew his vocal range and it hasn’t been a big problem to work out how to sing his songs. I can see why people might have thought it would be a problem, and I must admit I was even surprised by how well it went, myself. But again, if you come and see us live, I’m sure it’s not going to be something you’ll even notice. You really have to see us before you make up your mind. When we played those gigs at the end of last year, I wasn’t thinking about it too much because we were just getting on with it, but afterwards I realised, like, Fucking Hell, that really worked! There was a lot of love from the fans. They know that Pete has gone, but I’m still here and they already know Chris and Danny, so they’re happy to be able to hear the songs and keep the spirit alive.’
Changing the subject, I wanted to ask you about Flag of Convenience, the band you formed with John Maher after Buzzcocks originally split-up. You’d already released a solo-single, ‘50 years of Comparative Wealth’ in 1981, but then Flag of Convenience released the ‘Life on the Telephone’ single on Sire records the following year. It was a good record and pretty well received at the time, so I’ve always wondered why the band didn’t release any further records on Sire?
‘I was with Virgin Publishing at the time and they’d told me, if I wanted to do something new, things had changed and people wanted to hear a new style and sound. We did the single for Sire and went for more of an Eighties-sound to it. I thought we should at least try that, so we added chorus to the guitars and tried for that style of production. We were supposed to be recording a whole album with Sire so we thought, we’ll be able to do more of what we really want when we do that. But then I had a meeting with Seymour Stein, who was still the owner of Sire at the time, and I said, well, we’ve done a pop single, now we want to do a heavier album called ‘The Accused’, which will sound more like The Stooges or something. That didn’t go down too well at all and we ended-up parting company… All he seemed to be interested in was telling everyone that he’d just signed this young girl called Madonna and how he was sure she was going to be big. You could see that things were changing away from our type of guitar music to all that stuff that got popular in the Eighties, like Madonna and Boy George… When we told them we wanted to make a heavy guitar album, it was as if they thought guitars were all out of the window. Everything on Top of the Pops was suddenly blokes playing keyboards with one finger… We realised that punk rock was kind of fading away at that time, at least as far as the bigger record labels were concerned.’
‘Not really… I can get up there. I mean, if you listen to my voice on ‘Autonomy’, it’s pretty high, but I sort of changed my style after that because we wanted to have something to contrast with Pete’s vocals. I ended-up going for a harder, rock’n’roll style, although I think I smoothed that out a bit on our later albums. But originally, I deliberately went the other way to Pete so that we’d compliment each other and didn’t sound the same. So I didn’t have a problem taking-on those songs and, in fact, I’ve even been able to get up to ‘Why Can’t I Touch It?’ which even Pete couldn’t manage at times! But I didn’t just want to do an impression of Pete, so I’ve been pulling it down a bit with some songs. I felt that I had to make them my own rather than just an imitation. I mean, we’re both from the North and we’ve got similar accents so it works out… it’s not as if it’s someone from London trying to do it with a Southern accent! Also, we both sang backing vocals for each others songs for 40 years, so I know how to harmonise his songs and he knew how to harmonise mine, so I already knew his vocal range and it hasn’t been a big problem to work out how to sing his songs. I can see why people might have thought it would be a problem, and I must admit I was even surprised by how well it went, myself. But again, if you come and see us live, I’m sure it’s not going to be something you’ll even notice. You really have to see us before you make up your mind. When we played those gigs at the end of last year, I wasn’t thinking about it too much because we were just getting on with it, but afterwards I realised, like, Fucking Hell, that really worked! There was a lot of love from the fans. They know that Pete has gone, but I’m still here and they already know Chris and Danny, so they’re happy to be able to hear the songs and keep the spirit alive.’
Changing the subject, I wanted to ask you about Flag of Convenience, the band you formed with John Maher after Buzzcocks originally split-up. You’d already released a solo-single, ‘50 years of Comparative Wealth’ in 1981, but then Flag of Convenience released the ‘Life on the Telephone’ single on Sire records the following year. It was a good record and pretty well received at the time, so I’ve always wondered why the band didn’t release any further records on Sire?
‘I was with Virgin Publishing at the time and they’d told me, if I wanted to do something new, things had changed and people wanted to hear a new style and sound. We did the single for Sire and went for more of an Eighties-sound to it. I thought we should at least try that, so we added chorus to the guitars and tried for that style of production. We were supposed to be recording a whole album with Sire so we thought, we’ll be able to do more of what we really want when we do that. But then I had a meeting with Seymour Stein, who was still the owner of Sire at the time, and I said, well, we’ve done a pop single, now we want to do a heavier album called ‘The Accused’, which will sound more like The Stooges or something. That didn’t go down too well at all and we ended-up parting company… All he seemed to be interested in was telling everyone that he’d just signed this young girl called Madonna and how he was sure she was going to be big. You could see that things were changing away from our type of guitar music to all that stuff that got popular in the Eighties, like Madonna and Boy George… When we told them we wanted to make a heavy guitar album, it was as if they thought guitars were all out of the window. Everything on Top of the Pops was suddenly blokes playing keyboards with one finger… We realised that punk rock was kind of fading away at that time, at least as far as the bigger record labels were concerned.’
The band stayed together, albeit with changing line-ups, and released the singles ‘Change’ in 1984 and ‘New House’ in 1986, before the first album, ‘Northwest Skyline’ in 1987…
‘Yeah, we ended-up releasing our own stuff through MCM Records, distributed by Red Rhino and The Cartel, so we started to build-up interest for ourselves. We recorded what should have been our first album but didn’t have enough money at the time to complete and release it and by the time we did, we’d actually recorded another albums’ worth of songs, so we decided at that point to release the newer stuff as ‘Northwest Skyline’, which was what came out as our first album. A bit later on I met this American guy who was interested in what we were doing and I played him those original recordings. He really liked them and said that he’d love to put them out, so it was released in America as ‘War on the Wireless Set’ … that’s what happened. What should have been our first album eventually came out second, but I’d always been happy with those recordings and I’d been looking for someway to put them out, so I was happy when he released them. It’s just a shame that more people over here didn’t get to hear that album.’
Flag of Convenience carried on for some time, playing live and releasing further records, eventually coming to an end when Buzzcocks reformed…
‘Yeah, there was quite a lot of stuff. In fact, Cherry Red have even released a ‘Best of’ album, so people can still hear what we were doing back then. But there’s a lot of other stuff that’s still around and I keep meaning to put together a comprehensive collection of it… Maybe a boxset or something like that. I mean, we went through quite a few changes, in terms of the songs and the style, but I enjoyed doing all of that stuff. The only problem was that we were swimming against the tide back then. If you look at the bands that did get popular around that time, it was all keyboards and stuff. If you had guitars, you were almost out of place, really, even though audiences were still interested and we were able to do quite a bit of touring. I remember we played at a club in Paris called The Locomotive, which held a couple of thousand people. It was right next door to the Moulin Rouge and when we came back from having a meal, there was a big crowd outside. I thought all these people were queuing-up for the Moulin Rouge, but it turned out they were queuing for us! I mean, by that point we weren’t even playing any old Buzzcocks songs at all. But the crowd really got into our new stuff and were singing along, even though they hadn’t heard most of the songs before. We also played to a big crowd at The Metropol in Berlin, so we knew there was interest in what we were doing. But we were mostly playing in the UK and, at the time, it was against the tide over here and we just couldn’t get any coverage in the music papers.’
‘Yeah, we ended-up releasing our own stuff through MCM Records, distributed by Red Rhino and The Cartel, so we started to build-up interest for ourselves. We recorded what should have been our first album but didn’t have enough money at the time to complete and release it and by the time we did, we’d actually recorded another albums’ worth of songs, so we decided at that point to release the newer stuff as ‘Northwest Skyline’, which was what came out as our first album. A bit later on I met this American guy who was interested in what we were doing and I played him those original recordings. He really liked them and said that he’d love to put them out, so it was released in America as ‘War on the Wireless Set’ … that’s what happened. What should have been our first album eventually came out second, but I’d always been happy with those recordings and I’d been looking for someway to put them out, so I was happy when he released them. It’s just a shame that more people over here didn’t get to hear that album.’
Flag of Convenience carried on for some time, playing live and releasing further records, eventually coming to an end when Buzzcocks reformed…
‘Yeah, there was quite a lot of stuff. In fact, Cherry Red have even released a ‘Best of’ album, so people can still hear what we were doing back then. But there’s a lot of other stuff that’s still around and I keep meaning to put together a comprehensive collection of it… Maybe a boxset or something like that. I mean, we went through quite a few changes, in terms of the songs and the style, but I enjoyed doing all of that stuff. The only problem was that we were swimming against the tide back then. If you look at the bands that did get popular around that time, it was all keyboards and stuff. If you had guitars, you were almost out of place, really, even though audiences were still interested and we were able to do quite a bit of touring. I remember we played at a club in Paris called The Locomotive, which held a couple of thousand people. It was right next door to the Moulin Rouge and when we came back from having a meal, there was a big crowd outside. I thought all these people were queuing-up for the Moulin Rouge, but it turned out they were queuing for us! I mean, by that point we weren’t even playing any old Buzzcocks songs at all. But the crowd really got into our new stuff and were singing along, even though they hadn’t heard most of the songs before. We also played to a big crowd at The Metropol in Berlin, so we knew there was interest in what we were doing. But we were mostly playing in the UK and, at the time, it was against the tide over here and we just couldn’t get any coverage in the music papers.’
Back to Buzzcocks and the new boxset, ‘Late for the Train’, one of the things that you get to hear when listening to it is how varied the songs could actually be. Journalists often write that the Buzzcocks wrote ‘perfect pop’ or ‘punk-pop’ songs, but while that’s pretty true about the singles, a lot of the songs on the b-sides and the albums were quite experimental and embraced a lot of different influences…
‘Yeah, that’s right and I’m glad you’re pointed it out. I mean, something like ‘Why Can’t I Touch It?’ was a groove song. It started around my chord and built-up from there. I think the thing is that sometimes, because we had so much success with the singles and appeared on Top of the Pops so many times, people just think of us as a singles-band. But when you listen to songs like ‘Autonomy’ or ‘Something Goes Wrong Again’, we actually covered quite a lot of ground. Unfortunately, because the singles were so successful and still remain popular, a lot of people only really know those songs, which is why I hope things like this new boxset will help to put it all in a better perspective. There was a lot of great stuff we did that was pretty different from the singles… Something like ‘ESP’ was actually quite avant-garde, using that same repetitive riff all the way through, even when the chords change. Things like ‘Moving Away from The Pulsebeat’ weren’t exactly pop-songs, even though we always tried to make them accessible. There was a lot of more experimental, avant garde stuff, especially on the albums. We always wanted to cover a lot of ground and never wanted to get stuck doing just one thing. I think, because the band was so good, we were able to go anywhere we wanted and we did that sometimes. We had loads of different influences, from Krautrock all the way through to Sixties pop and I think that’s something that ought to be recognised a lot more. I know most of our really hardcore fans already know that, even if a lot of other people only know about the hit songs. But I certainly think our more avant garde stuff is just as good and it’s always been important to me. If we had just been trying to make pop singles, I think it would have soon become pretty boring for all of us. I mean, the singles were great and I’m not taking anything away from them, but the other stuff was just as important to us… And, of course, when you saw us live, it was another thing as well. If someone had only seen us on ‘Top of the Pops’, they were seeing something that was pretty tame compared to out live gigs, which could really take your head off! We did a lot of different stuff, some of it was pretty heavy while other bits were more avant garde and unfortunately those aspects of the band sometimes get ignored.’
‘Yeah, that’s right and I’m glad you’re pointed it out. I mean, something like ‘Why Can’t I Touch It?’ was a groove song. It started around my chord and built-up from there. I think the thing is that sometimes, because we had so much success with the singles and appeared on Top of the Pops so many times, people just think of us as a singles-band. But when you listen to songs like ‘Autonomy’ or ‘Something Goes Wrong Again’, we actually covered quite a lot of ground. Unfortunately, because the singles were so successful and still remain popular, a lot of people only really know those songs, which is why I hope things like this new boxset will help to put it all in a better perspective. There was a lot of great stuff we did that was pretty different from the singles… Something like ‘ESP’ was actually quite avant-garde, using that same repetitive riff all the way through, even when the chords change. Things like ‘Moving Away from The Pulsebeat’ weren’t exactly pop-songs, even though we always tried to make them accessible. There was a lot of more experimental, avant garde stuff, especially on the albums. We always wanted to cover a lot of ground and never wanted to get stuck doing just one thing. I think, because the band was so good, we were able to go anywhere we wanted and we did that sometimes. We had loads of different influences, from Krautrock all the way through to Sixties pop and I think that’s something that ought to be recognised a lot more. I know most of our really hardcore fans already know that, even if a lot of other people only know about the hit songs. But I certainly think our more avant garde stuff is just as good and it’s always been important to me. If we had just been trying to make pop singles, I think it would have soon become pretty boring for all of us. I mean, the singles were great and I’m not taking anything away from them, but the other stuff was just as important to us… And, of course, when you saw us live, it was another thing as well. If someone had only seen us on ‘Top of the Pops’, they were seeing something that was pretty tame compared to out live gigs, which could really take your head off! We did a lot of different stuff, some of it was pretty heavy while other bits were more avant garde and unfortunately those aspects of the band sometimes get ignored.’
Something else that I appreciated was that you always included strong songs on the b-sides of the singles, whereas a lot of bands would just use a throwaway track that they didn’t really care about so much…
‘Well, we knew we had to record two songs when we went in to do a single so we’d decide what we wanted to do before we went to the studio. Several times, we’d finish recording, listen to the songs and then couldn’t decide which was going to be the A-side! The thing was, we were recording songs that we thought could all have been A-sides, which was great, but sometimes it became hard to choose. It’s funny because I’ve been thinking about that sort of thing recently and I really wouldn’t mind getting back to releasing a single with a catchy A-side and then something good but completely different on the B-side. I remember when we used to go to a pub and if there was a jukebox, you’d put on the B-side of a single rather than the A-side. Sometimes you’d get something a bit weird, but it would be really good! I wouldn’t mind doing something like that now, rather than just trying to do two pop songs on the A and B sides. I mean, we can do that but I think it would be nice to have something a bit more obscure on the B-side, something that’ll take it into different areas rather than just having a straight-forward song on each side. I like the idea of doing something that’ll make people think, ‘Bloody hell, that’s a bit weird’, when they compare it to the A-side. It’ll give us a chance to bring out a bit more of our experimental side and make it more interesting. Back in the late Sixties and early Seventies, bands would do that and you’d find something a little bit different on the B-side, but it would still be kind of cool. I remember getting ‘Silver Machine’ by Hawkwind and the B-side was ‘Seven by Seven’, which was pretty slow and completely different to the A-side… I loved stuff like that when I was a kid! I loved that element of surprise because some of the B-sides didn’t even sound like the band on the A-side. Actually, I even remember that I occasionally used to go to a pub called The Railway Hotel, which was near where I lived when I was a teenager. They used to have these singles on their jukebox which were basically sound-recordings of different trains! So we’d put on an Elvis single, perhaps, and then have the sounds of a Diesel Locomotive shunting eight carriages into a side-line at a junction! We’d put stuff like that on for a laugh, but in some ways it was also pretty avant garde! Why would a pub have things like that on its’ jukebox? I mean, it was The Railway Hotel, right next to a railway station, very old style… But listening to stuff like that in a pub was pretty weird. I wouldn’t want to listen to it everyday, but I thought it was cool.’
Since the band reformed in 1989, you’ve released six albums which have all been well-received and certainly stand-up well alongside those recorded by the original band. Do you think the later albums get the credit that they deserve?
‘I hope so, and I think that the ‘Sell You Everything’ boxset which came out recently and just featured stuff we’d recorded since we reformed, gave people a chance to put those albums into perspective. I know we’ll always be best known for the early line-up and those first three albums, but when you listen to the stuff we recorded during the Nineties, there’s some really fantastic stuff to hear. It’s good but it’s also different and we weren’t just trying to repeat the earlier stuff. This new boxset includes live and session recordings from that same period, so people can hear how well the newer songs compare to the older ones. Again, during the Nineties you had Grunge, Britpop and the whole Rave thing going on, so the spotlight wasn’t on us but we always had our regular audience and people who were picking up on us for the first time, so we just carried on with what we were doing. Fashions are always changing and turning around, but we were still the Buzzcocks and able to tour the world and release new records. We were always so busy with what we were doing that we didn’t really get a chance to reflect on it and I’ve only had that chance over the past year, when I’ve realised that a lot of the stuff we did was really fucking good. There’s some amazing stuff on those albums and it’s a shame that some people who probably would’ve been into it, ended-up missing out. I still have people getting in touch on social media to tell me that they’ve just come across the later albums and really like them, but didn’t know at the time that they’d even been released! But, you know, maybe they used to be a fans but then got married and had some kids, so they lost the plot for a bit and they’ve only recently been able to get back into it again. Either way, I think the band was really great during the Nineties and even more recently, so I’m glad that it’s being documented like this.’
‘Well, we knew we had to record two songs when we went in to do a single so we’d decide what we wanted to do before we went to the studio. Several times, we’d finish recording, listen to the songs and then couldn’t decide which was going to be the A-side! The thing was, we were recording songs that we thought could all have been A-sides, which was great, but sometimes it became hard to choose. It’s funny because I’ve been thinking about that sort of thing recently and I really wouldn’t mind getting back to releasing a single with a catchy A-side and then something good but completely different on the B-side. I remember when we used to go to a pub and if there was a jukebox, you’d put on the B-side of a single rather than the A-side. Sometimes you’d get something a bit weird, but it would be really good! I wouldn’t mind doing something like that now, rather than just trying to do two pop songs on the A and B sides. I mean, we can do that but I think it would be nice to have something a bit more obscure on the B-side, something that’ll take it into different areas rather than just having a straight-forward song on each side. I like the idea of doing something that’ll make people think, ‘Bloody hell, that’s a bit weird’, when they compare it to the A-side. It’ll give us a chance to bring out a bit more of our experimental side and make it more interesting. Back in the late Sixties and early Seventies, bands would do that and you’d find something a little bit different on the B-side, but it would still be kind of cool. I remember getting ‘Silver Machine’ by Hawkwind and the B-side was ‘Seven by Seven’, which was pretty slow and completely different to the A-side… I loved stuff like that when I was a kid! I loved that element of surprise because some of the B-sides didn’t even sound like the band on the A-side. Actually, I even remember that I occasionally used to go to a pub called The Railway Hotel, which was near where I lived when I was a teenager. They used to have these singles on their jukebox which were basically sound-recordings of different trains! So we’d put on an Elvis single, perhaps, and then have the sounds of a Diesel Locomotive shunting eight carriages into a side-line at a junction! We’d put stuff like that on for a laugh, but in some ways it was also pretty avant garde! Why would a pub have things like that on its’ jukebox? I mean, it was The Railway Hotel, right next to a railway station, very old style… But listening to stuff like that in a pub was pretty weird. I wouldn’t want to listen to it everyday, but I thought it was cool.’
Since the band reformed in 1989, you’ve released six albums which have all been well-received and certainly stand-up well alongside those recorded by the original band. Do you think the later albums get the credit that they deserve?
‘I hope so, and I think that the ‘Sell You Everything’ boxset which came out recently and just featured stuff we’d recorded since we reformed, gave people a chance to put those albums into perspective. I know we’ll always be best known for the early line-up and those first three albums, but when you listen to the stuff we recorded during the Nineties, there’s some really fantastic stuff to hear. It’s good but it’s also different and we weren’t just trying to repeat the earlier stuff. This new boxset includes live and session recordings from that same period, so people can hear how well the newer songs compare to the older ones. Again, during the Nineties you had Grunge, Britpop and the whole Rave thing going on, so the spotlight wasn’t on us but we always had our regular audience and people who were picking up on us for the first time, so we just carried on with what we were doing. Fashions are always changing and turning around, but we were still the Buzzcocks and able to tour the world and release new records. We were always so busy with what we were doing that we didn’t really get a chance to reflect on it and I’ve only had that chance over the past year, when I’ve realised that a lot of the stuff we did was really fucking good. There’s some amazing stuff on those albums and it’s a shame that some people who probably would’ve been into it, ended-up missing out. I still have people getting in touch on social media to tell me that they’ve just come across the later albums and really like them, but didn’t know at the time that they’d even been released! But, you know, maybe they used to be a fans but then got married and had some kids, so they lost the plot for a bit and they’ve only recently been able to get back into it again. Either way, I think the band was really great during the Nineties and even more recently, so I’m glad that it’s being documented like this.’
Do you enjoy going through the bands’ archives to see what can be made available to the fans?
‘Yeah, because there is some great stuff that’s hasn’t been available before now. When we were putting ‘Sell You Everything’ together, we came across a whole albums-worth of demos that were recorded in 1991, before ‘Trade Test Transmissions’. We decided to release them and I thought it would be cool to make it look like a bootleg, you know, like something you’d find on a stall in Camden Market… You know, when you’d find a bootleg album by one of your favourite bands and the cover would just be a bad photocopy! I think most people got what we were doing with that, but either way, the album itself is really good. There are songs on there that we’d almost forgotten about and I really don’t know why they never came out. I think that, probably, there was a bit of a gap between when we recorded the demos and when ‘Trade Test Transmissions’ was recorded, so we had a lot more newer songs by then and had to ditch some of the older ones. I found loads of stuff like that when we were working on ‘Sell You Everything’, as we wanted to include extra tracks with each of the original albums. That was also when I discovered we also had the live recordings that make up ‘Late For The Train’. All of this was something else that was I was able to do during ‘lockdown’, sorting out all of this stuff with Cherry Red. I also think it’s good that the two boxsets bring everything up to date in a way. It covers all of the stuff we did with Pete since the band reformed and I hope it’ll let us move into the next phase. But it was also a pleasure to go through all of that material and remember those moments, because we had some great times. It’s a good way to make sense out of all of it. It wasn’t the same as when we were making the first three albums, because back then the spotlight was on us and The Clash and the Pistols. When we made the later records, the spotlight wasn’t on us anymore so some people missed out on it, but that’s what makes it great now, that people are still discovering it for the first time. That’s why putting these things out now makes a sense.’
Finally, I know the current situation is making it difficult to plan ahead, but what are you hoping to do in the near future, either with the current band or any other retrospective releases?
‘I’m just waiting to hear when we can start working again. Our agent has told me that no-one’s really booking any gigs or tours at the moment… I mean, I know that some people are booking things, but they don’t really know if they’re going to happen or not, due to all the different rules and regulations in different places. So it’s still very hard to say what we’ll be doing, but as soon as we’re given the go ahead, we’ll be out there tomorrow. I’m ready and revving to go, but we can’t do anything right at this moment because no-one will book anything. But I think, or hope, we’re getting nearer to that day. It’s been a bit frustrating for us, but we’ll be out there as soon as we can. In the meantime, we made two videos for the songs from the recent single, ‘Gotta Get Better’ and ‘Destination Zero’, and we’ve put them up on youtube so that people can hear and see what we’ve been doing. To be honest, the single was a little bit rushed because we wanted to have it ready before the dates we played at the end of last year, but I think the songs are still a good start to what we’re going to be doing and I’m sure people are going to enjoy what we’re doing… as soon as we get a chance to do it!’
‘Yeah, because there is some great stuff that’s hasn’t been available before now. When we were putting ‘Sell You Everything’ together, we came across a whole albums-worth of demos that were recorded in 1991, before ‘Trade Test Transmissions’. We decided to release them and I thought it would be cool to make it look like a bootleg, you know, like something you’d find on a stall in Camden Market… You know, when you’d find a bootleg album by one of your favourite bands and the cover would just be a bad photocopy! I think most people got what we were doing with that, but either way, the album itself is really good. There are songs on there that we’d almost forgotten about and I really don’t know why they never came out. I think that, probably, there was a bit of a gap between when we recorded the demos and when ‘Trade Test Transmissions’ was recorded, so we had a lot more newer songs by then and had to ditch some of the older ones. I found loads of stuff like that when we were working on ‘Sell You Everything’, as we wanted to include extra tracks with each of the original albums. That was also when I discovered we also had the live recordings that make up ‘Late For The Train’. All of this was something else that was I was able to do during ‘lockdown’, sorting out all of this stuff with Cherry Red. I also think it’s good that the two boxsets bring everything up to date in a way. It covers all of the stuff we did with Pete since the band reformed and I hope it’ll let us move into the next phase. But it was also a pleasure to go through all of that material and remember those moments, because we had some great times. It’s a good way to make sense out of all of it. It wasn’t the same as when we were making the first three albums, because back then the spotlight was on us and The Clash and the Pistols. When we made the later records, the spotlight wasn’t on us anymore so some people missed out on it, but that’s what makes it great now, that people are still discovering it for the first time. That’s why putting these things out now makes a sense.’
Finally, I know the current situation is making it difficult to plan ahead, but what are you hoping to do in the near future, either with the current band or any other retrospective releases?
‘I’m just waiting to hear when we can start working again. Our agent has told me that no-one’s really booking any gigs or tours at the moment… I mean, I know that some people are booking things, but they don’t really know if they’re going to happen or not, due to all the different rules and regulations in different places. So it’s still very hard to say what we’ll be doing, but as soon as we’re given the go ahead, we’ll be out there tomorrow. I’m ready and revving to go, but we can’t do anything right at this moment because no-one will book anything. But I think, or hope, we’re getting nearer to that day. It’s been a bit frustrating for us, but we’ll be out there as soon as we can. In the meantime, we made two videos for the songs from the recent single, ‘Gotta Get Better’ and ‘Destination Zero’, and we’ve put them up on youtube so that people can hear and see what we’ve been doing. To be honest, the single was a little bit rushed because we wanted to have it ready before the dates we played at the end of last year, but I think the songs are still a good start to what we’re going to be doing and I’m sure people are going to enjoy what we’re doing… as soon as we get a chance to do it!’
As I said at the beginning, I was doubtful at first that the Buzzcocks would be able to continue effectively without Pete Shelley, but having heard the positive reviews of the gigs they played at the end of 2019 and listening to Steve’s obvious enthusiasm towards the bands’ future, I’m now pretty sure that it’s all going to come together properly. Of course, if 2020 hadn’t been the write-off that it was, the band would’ve been able to prove themselves by now, but we’ll just have to be patient for a bit longer before we can all catch up. In the meantime, there’s plenty to keep yourselves interested. The ‘Sell You Everything’ boxset and ‘The 1991 Demos Album’ are still available from Cherry Red and the ‘Late for the Train’ boxset will be their first release of 2021. Any fan, old or new, is going to find so much great music on these releases and, trust me, they’ll keep you busy until further new material is ready.
Obviously, this interview is dedicated to Pete Shelley, one of the best songwriters that England has ever produced. Long live the Buzzcocks!
www.buzzcocks.com
www.cherryred.co.uk
Obviously, this interview is dedicated to Pete Shelley, one of the best songwriters that England has ever produced. Long live the Buzzcocks!
www.buzzcocks.com
www.cherryred.co.uk