Some of the most important people involved in the music we love have not necessarily been the musicians.
Think about it… Where would we be with the likes of Sam Phillips (Sun Studios & record label) ? Or Danny Fields, who was instrumental in the careers of the Stooges, MC5 and Ramones ? Or (I begrudgingly have to admit) Malcolm McLaren, who encouraged and enabled the Sex Pistols to have the impact they made (much that he never really understood what they created.) Another two characters who were instrumental to the development of the British Punk Rock scene were Andrew Czezowski and Susan Carrington, the original founders (alongside Barry Jones) of the Roxy club. At a time when the majority of London venues were banning anything that they considered ‘punk’, the Roxy provided an essential venue for the bands that suddenly emerged in the last few months of ’76 and the beginning of ’77. Without that outlet and exposure, many of those bands may well have fallen at the first hurdle. Think Generation X, Siouxsie & The Banshees, Wire, Eater, The Adverts, The Jam, Wayne County, The Slits… for fucksake, even The Police ! All of these, and many others, played early important gigs at the Roxy and may well not have gained the impetus to go further had the venue never existed. In retrospect, it’s easy for critics to claim the Roxy was just a commercial venture (and indeed, that is what it turned into after Andrew and Susan were ousted) but those initial ‘100 Nights’ were a vital experience that didn’t depend on commercial income (indeed, whatever profits were made had to be balanced against potentially violent robberies !) It was a very short period but its’ importance just cannot be underestimated.
Andrew and Susan went on to be involved with other projects, including the initial groundwork for The Vortex and the eventual founding of The Fridge in Brixton, a club which had a similar cultural impact although for very different scenes. But their latest project has involved the re-publishing of the legendary ‘100 Nights At The Roxy’ photo book and the all-new ‘The Roxy, London 1976-77’. These two books serve as a complimentary set, the first made up entirely of photo’s and images from the original club, bands and audience, showing how it really was, while the second includes extracts from Susan’s diary recollections and anecdotes from those involved, telling the story with more accuracy than is ever likely to be bettered. This was only a short period but it was intense and incredibly influential. It’s a story that needs to be told.
I’ve been lucky enough to meet and get to know Andrew and Susan over the last twenty years and they’ve always proved to be very down-to-earth, while remaining as stylish as ever. So, with the publication of the books, I jumped at the opportunity to interview them.
Think about it… Where would we be with the likes of Sam Phillips (Sun Studios & record label) ? Or Danny Fields, who was instrumental in the careers of the Stooges, MC5 and Ramones ? Or (I begrudgingly have to admit) Malcolm McLaren, who encouraged and enabled the Sex Pistols to have the impact they made (much that he never really understood what they created.) Another two characters who were instrumental to the development of the British Punk Rock scene were Andrew Czezowski and Susan Carrington, the original founders (alongside Barry Jones) of the Roxy club. At a time when the majority of London venues were banning anything that they considered ‘punk’, the Roxy provided an essential venue for the bands that suddenly emerged in the last few months of ’76 and the beginning of ’77. Without that outlet and exposure, many of those bands may well have fallen at the first hurdle. Think Generation X, Siouxsie & The Banshees, Wire, Eater, The Adverts, The Jam, Wayne County, The Slits… for fucksake, even The Police ! All of these, and many others, played early important gigs at the Roxy and may well not have gained the impetus to go further had the venue never existed. In retrospect, it’s easy for critics to claim the Roxy was just a commercial venture (and indeed, that is what it turned into after Andrew and Susan were ousted) but those initial ‘100 Nights’ were a vital experience that didn’t depend on commercial income (indeed, whatever profits were made had to be balanced against potentially violent robberies !) It was a very short period but its’ importance just cannot be underestimated.
Andrew and Susan went on to be involved with other projects, including the initial groundwork for The Vortex and the eventual founding of The Fridge in Brixton, a club which had a similar cultural impact although for very different scenes. But their latest project has involved the re-publishing of the legendary ‘100 Nights At The Roxy’ photo book and the all-new ‘The Roxy, London 1976-77’. These two books serve as a complimentary set, the first made up entirely of photo’s and images from the original club, bands and audience, showing how it really was, while the second includes extracts from Susan’s diary recollections and anecdotes from those involved, telling the story with more accuracy than is ever likely to be bettered. This was only a short period but it was intense and incredibly influential. It’s a story that needs to be told.
I’ve been lucky enough to meet and get to know Andrew and Susan over the last twenty years and they’ve always proved to be very down-to-earth, while remaining as stylish as ever. So, with the publication of the books, I jumped at the opportunity to interview them.
Meeting up in an appropriate Soho coffee bar, I began by asking about their history together. Obviously, I knew that they had been together since the Seventies, but it wasn’t until I read the new book that I found out that you’ve actually been together since 1966 ! I wondered if, as you’ve been involved together in creative projects, do you think that’s something that’s helped to maintain a strong and enduring relationship ?
Susan : Yes, probably, because we’ve always been together and we both love music. We were going to clubs in ’66 and then started going to see live bands. We saw everything and we always loved the whole club atmosphere, the excitement and the show. It was because of this that we decided to do it ourselves.
Andrew ; You hear about so many relationships that break up because the man’s out at work and gets fed-up with it, so when he gets home it’s the last thing he wants to talk about. But the woman is bored and wants to talk about what’s been happening, which he doesn’t want to discuss. In our case, we’ve pretty much always been in the same place at the same time, so we both know what’s going on.
Susan ; We met when we were both 16 and had exactly the same vision, that we didn’t want to be like the people we went to school with. That sounds a bit pompous, and of course, I was… maybe I still am ! But we were looking for something a bit different and we just clicked. It was like ‘eyes-across-the-dance floor’ in our own peculiar way…
Andrew ; Burning into my soul…
Susan : Ohhh ! Someone said that about one of the photo’s of me in the book !
Andrew : It’s just been easier for us to work together. We don’t have to explain everything because we’ll both be working on it at the same time.
And you can both move in to new things as you become interested in them…
Susan ; Absolutely, which is why we moved away from band management and got into the clubbing side of things. We realised that we would be able to get involved with new bands and interesting new people as soon as they appeared, rather than just working with one group at a time. That really started with the first Fridge and moved on to the big Fridge. We ended up employing 180 people and they all wanted to be there. Everyone was a part of the club and that’s what we’ve always tried to do because, basically, we love it that way.
Andrew : Although we were running these things, we never took a hierarchical view of it, like, stressing that we were the management and they were the staff… We always tried to encompass everybody on an equal level, so it was more of a community. We never wrote down a list of rules and when people stayed with us it was because they enjoyed what we were doing and how we employed them.
Susan ; We were never into committees or meetings… if something didn’t work, we’d just stop it and move on to the next thing.
One of the things that people have said about the original Roxy was that, most evenings, one of you would actually be at the door to greet people rather than just having someone there to take the money…
Susan ; We never really thought about the money, it was never a money-making thing…
Andrew : We certainly didn’t think about the money enough, which was why we were always broke !
Susan ; We didn’t come from backgrounds that had a lot of money, so we never thought about things in terms of, what should we do for a career ? There was never any of that.
Andrew : We were almost surprised that people wanted to pay us to come in and enjoy themselves on our premises. We thought that was wonderful ! We would almost have paid them to come in, if that meant we could do those things. We just wanted other people to become a part of it.
Susan : We just wanted people to enjoy themselves and have a good night out, basically. We’ve never been political, we’ve never tried to be ‘right-on’ or told people ‘down with this’ and ‘down with that’. We just wanted people to have a laugh and that’s what it all started from.
Susan : Yes, probably, because we’ve always been together and we both love music. We were going to clubs in ’66 and then started going to see live bands. We saw everything and we always loved the whole club atmosphere, the excitement and the show. It was because of this that we decided to do it ourselves.
Andrew ; You hear about so many relationships that break up because the man’s out at work and gets fed-up with it, so when he gets home it’s the last thing he wants to talk about. But the woman is bored and wants to talk about what’s been happening, which he doesn’t want to discuss. In our case, we’ve pretty much always been in the same place at the same time, so we both know what’s going on.
Susan ; We met when we were both 16 and had exactly the same vision, that we didn’t want to be like the people we went to school with. That sounds a bit pompous, and of course, I was… maybe I still am ! But we were looking for something a bit different and we just clicked. It was like ‘eyes-across-the-dance floor’ in our own peculiar way…
Andrew ; Burning into my soul…
Susan : Ohhh ! Someone said that about one of the photo’s of me in the book !
Andrew : It’s just been easier for us to work together. We don’t have to explain everything because we’ll both be working on it at the same time.
And you can both move in to new things as you become interested in them…
Susan ; Absolutely, which is why we moved away from band management and got into the clubbing side of things. We realised that we would be able to get involved with new bands and interesting new people as soon as they appeared, rather than just working with one group at a time. That really started with the first Fridge and moved on to the big Fridge. We ended up employing 180 people and they all wanted to be there. Everyone was a part of the club and that’s what we’ve always tried to do because, basically, we love it that way.
Andrew : Although we were running these things, we never took a hierarchical view of it, like, stressing that we were the management and they were the staff… We always tried to encompass everybody on an equal level, so it was more of a community. We never wrote down a list of rules and when people stayed with us it was because they enjoyed what we were doing and how we employed them.
Susan ; We were never into committees or meetings… if something didn’t work, we’d just stop it and move on to the next thing.
One of the things that people have said about the original Roxy was that, most evenings, one of you would actually be at the door to greet people rather than just having someone there to take the money…
Susan ; We never really thought about the money, it was never a money-making thing…
Andrew : We certainly didn’t think about the money enough, which was why we were always broke !
Susan ; We didn’t come from backgrounds that had a lot of money, so we never thought about things in terms of, what should we do for a career ? There was never any of that.
Andrew : We were almost surprised that people wanted to pay us to come in and enjoy themselves on our premises. We thought that was wonderful ! We would almost have paid them to come in, if that meant we could do those things. We just wanted other people to become a part of it.
Susan : We just wanted people to enjoy themselves and have a good night out, basically. We’ve never been political, we’ve never tried to be ‘right-on’ or told people ‘down with this’ and ‘down with that’. We just wanted people to have a laugh and that’s what it all started from.
You started to go to live music venues in what was the original Mod era. Do you think that your interests in music just developed naturally from there on ?
Susan : I wouldn’t necessarily say we were just into Mod music… I was also going to see things like Jimi Hendrix, which was hardly ‘Mod’…
Andrew : But we were there in those times, listening to The Who and The Animals, which then progressed into Hendrix, so there was a line of sorts…
Susan : We went to the Ram Jam club in Brixton, which would eventually became the site for the first Fridge. We actually went there on its’ first night to see The Animals, who I suppose you could associate with the Mod scene, but they didn’t really have that look and were more like a Blues band. But we also saw people there like Otis Redding and Ike & Tina Turner, which took us down a whole Soul avenue. We just liked anything that was vibrant.
Andrew : We were lucky because there was a whole explosion of music around that time and the Ram Jam was probably one of the premier clubs of the time for putting on all of the new music, just as the Roxy would be in its’ own time. It was owned by the same people who ran The Flamingo in Soho, who were two ex-Army conscripts that had been working as security for the Jazz clubs. At some point they realised that they should run a club themselves, so they started The Flamingo. After a while they saw that they had a lot of black American airmen coming down to the club so they started to put on more Soul-based American music and began to get bigger crowds. As it got more popular, they opened the Ram Jam in Brixton and found that they could afford to bring American singers like Otis Redding over on and have them play gigs with a scratch-band. They would play those two venues and maybe some of the American Airforce or Army bases, so they’d have a short tour before they flew home again. It was quite a brave thing to set-up at the time. We were lucky because I lived only a short walk away from the Ram Jam and Susan was only a short bus-ride away, so we got to see all these great bands virtually on our door-step.’
Moving from a situation like that into the early-Seventies, did you find the new decade as dull as it is often portrayed in hindsight ?
Susan ; It was for me. When we moved to Streatham, I was wearing Laura Ashley clothes, I had brown hair and I baked cakes. I felt like I was getting old ! And bands like Led Zeppelin did nothing for me.
Andrew ; I would have to disagree with that. I won’t say we settled down, but we’d got our own flat and had to start working to pay the rent. But when Dingwalls opened up in 1973, it was a huge thing for us. We had to get on a 69 bus and go all the way from South London to North London to get there, but we did it.
Susan ; We’d see bands like Kilburn & The Highroads and Brinzley Schwartz, all the good Pub Rock stuff.
Andrew ; There was all kinds of stuff going on, although it wasn’t the same as it had been in the mid-Sixties when you had a real explosion of certain sounds. In the early Seventies there were still a lot of young bands who just wanted to make some noise but they didn’t have the same sense of direction and hadn’t really formulated anything. But they were still out there and I’m sure that’s also what’s going on right now, in the back rooms of small pubs. It’s just that I don’t know where they are anymore…
Susan : They used to say, if you’re old you shouldn’t know what’s going on ! You’ve got to be 16 and doing it…
Susan : I wouldn’t necessarily say we were just into Mod music… I was also going to see things like Jimi Hendrix, which was hardly ‘Mod’…
Andrew : But we were there in those times, listening to The Who and The Animals, which then progressed into Hendrix, so there was a line of sorts…
Susan : We went to the Ram Jam club in Brixton, which would eventually became the site for the first Fridge. We actually went there on its’ first night to see The Animals, who I suppose you could associate with the Mod scene, but they didn’t really have that look and were more like a Blues band. But we also saw people there like Otis Redding and Ike & Tina Turner, which took us down a whole Soul avenue. We just liked anything that was vibrant.
Andrew : We were lucky because there was a whole explosion of music around that time and the Ram Jam was probably one of the premier clubs of the time for putting on all of the new music, just as the Roxy would be in its’ own time. It was owned by the same people who ran The Flamingo in Soho, who were two ex-Army conscripts that had been working as security for the Jazz clubs. At some point they realised that they should run a club themselves, so they started The Flamingo. After a while they saw that they had a lot of black American airmen coming down to the club so they started to put on more Soul-based American music and began to get bigger crowds. As it got more popular, they opened the Ram Jam in Brixton and found that they could afford to bring American singers like Otis Redding over on and have them play gigs with a scratch-band. They would play those two venues and maybe some of the American Airforce or Army bases, so they’d have a short tour before they flew home again. It was quite a brave thing to set-up at the time. We were lucky because I lived only a short walk away from the Ram Jam and Susan was only a short bus-ride away, so we got to see all these great bands virtually on our door-step.’
Moving from a situation like that into the early-Seventies, did you find the new decade as dull as it is often portrayed in hindsight ?
Susan ; It was for me. When we moved to Streatham, I was wearing Laura Ashley clothes, I had brown hair and I baked cakes. I felt like I was getting old ! And bands like Led Zeppelin did nothing for me.
Andrew ; I would have to disagree with that. I won’t say we settled down, but we’d got our own flat and had to start working to pay the rent. But when Dingwalls opened up in 1973, it was a huge thing for us. We had to get on a 69 bus and go all the way from South London to North London to get there, but we did it.
Susan ; We’d see bands like Kilburn & The Highroads and Brinzley Schwartz, all the good Pub Rock stuff.
Andrew ; There was all kinds of stuff going on, although it wasn’t the same as it had been in the mid-Sixties when you had a real explosion of certain sounds. In the early Seventies there were still a lot of young bands who just wanted to make some noise but they didn’t have the same sense of direction and hadn’t really formulated anything. But they were still out there and I’m sure that’s also what’s going on right now, in the back rooms of small pubs. It’s just that I don’t know where they are anymore…
Susan : They used to say, if you’re old you shouldn’t know what’s going on ! You’ve got to be 16 and doing it…
I suppose the first step towards the eventual
opening of The Roxy was when you started working with John Krivine ?
Susan ; Well, when I was 17, I had been at a really crummy school but they thought I had something, so I was sent to City & Westminster College. That was where I first met John, who came from a very wealthy family that lived in Eton Square. We became very good friends but it was some time later when we actually worked for him. He had a shop in the back of Antiquarius on the Kings Road, called Acme Attractions, where he used to sell things like American GI clothing, Zoot Suits and Jukeboxes, because he had the money to import all of these things. I just had a Saturday job with him at first, but I had to get a day-job in the end and when I left was when he moved his shop into the basement. That was when he joined up with Steph Raynor and started selling their own clothes… I think that was also when Donovan Letts and Jeanette Lee started working there. We had also discovered Vivienne’s shop and her fabulous clothes by then, so we would still visit both shops and one day, John asked if Andrew could do his book-keeping on a day-to-day basis.
Andrew ; This was a while before the Sex Pistols had started playing, so we were still going out to see Pub Rock bands. We didn’t have any kind of plan, but we kept ourselves open to things that were happening and it progressed in that way. If people said, come and see this band, or have you seen this new shop, we’d go along to find out, even if we didn’t really know anything about them. You just fall into these things because you’re interested in people who might be like-minded. You just have to remain open-eyed and open-eared.
And it was that approach which resulted in you seeing the Sex Pistols first gig…
Andrew ; Yes, it was purely by chance, really. We were in Vivienne’s shop and she told us this band were really good and we should go and see them. She gave us a flyer for the gig and we thought, why not ? So we went to see them at St Martins College and they came across as very different to all the other bands around.
Susan ; They were fantastic, it was so exciting !
Andrew ; Musically, they weren’t perfect, but that wasn’t the point. It was the way they put their energy across that mattered. They were full-on, so we decided we had to see them again.
opening of The Roxy was when you started working with John Krivine ?
Susan ; Well, when I was 17, I had been at a really crummy school but they thought I had something, so I was sent to City & Westminster College. That was where I first met John, who came from a very wealthy family that lived in Eton Square. We became very good friends but it was some time later when we actually worked for him. He had a shop in the back of Antiquarius on the Kings Road, called Acme Attractions, where he used to sell things like American GI clothing, Zoot Suits and Jukeboxes, because he had the money to import all of these things. I just had a Saturday job with him at first, but I had to get a day-job in the end and when I left was when he moved his shop into the basement. That was when he joined up with Steph Raynor and started selling their own clothes… I think that was also when Donovan Letts and Jeanette Lee started working there. We had also discovered Vivienne’s shop and her fabulous clothes by then, so we would still visit both shops and one day, John asked if Andrew could do his book-keeping on a day-to-day basis.
Andrew ; This was a while before the Sex Pistols had started playing, so we were still going out to see Pub Rock bands. We didn’t have any kind of plan, but we kept ourselves open to things that were happening and it progressed in that way. If people said, come and see this band, or have you seen this new shop, we’d go along to find out, even if we didn’t really know anything about them. You just fall into these things because you’re interested in people who might be like-minded. You just have to remain open-eyed and open-eared.
And it was that approach which resulted in you seeing the Sex Pistols first gig…
Andrew ; Yes, it was purely by chance, really. We were in Vivienne’s shop and she told us this band were really good and we should go and see them. She gave us a flyer for the gig and we thought, why not ? So we went to see them at St Martins College and they came across as very different to all the other bands around.
Susan ; They were fantastic, it was so exciting !
Andrew ; Musically, they weren’t perfect, but that wasn’t the point. It was the way they put their energy across that mattered. They were full-on, so we decided we had to see them again.
Susan : Although I have to say, the band that really blew me away was The Damned. I think Andrew first met them in the Summer of ’76 ? They were already hanging around and we’d seen them at other gigs. Andrew was working at another shop in Notting Hill by then called Acme Surplus, which John had taken on as a sort of office and store-house…
Andrew ; He wanted to use it as a warehouse, where he could store things and sell them in bulk. One day, I was standing outside and two of them, Rat and Brian I think, were walking by. We’d seen each other around so we got talking. They told me about their band and asked if I’d manage them. They knew that I knew various people and had some contacts…
Susan ; Plus, you had access to a van, which is always useful for a new band…
Andrew ; It really was as simple as that. I just happened to be having a cup of coffee or eating a sandwich outside, taking a break from painting the walls or something. They happened to be passing by, as they were rehearsing at a nearby church hall at the time. We didn’t really know each other but we’d seen each other around, so we just said ‘Hi’ and started having a chat. They told me about their band and asked if I wanted to come down to the rehearsal to hear them. I ended up walking down the street with them and thought, this sounds interesting, so it just went on from there. The first thing I did was arrange for them to rehearse at John Krivine’s warehouse down in Bermondsey.
Susan : They brought-in Dave Vanian to sing about the same time. I think the first time I saw them was in some little pub, and they were so fast, completely bananas and mad… That was really the moment for me. And luckily, they’re still doing it, which is great !
Andrew ; They just rehearsed, rehearsed and rehearsed, so they got really good quite quickly.
Susan ; The songs that Brian wrote were so good. I mean, when you listen to the Sex Pistols, some of the songs do sound a bit like Mott The Hoople or someone else, but The Damned really had their own, thrashing sound.
Andrew ; They had their own influences, of course, but what they came up with was first rate.
Susan ; And you continued to manage them until you went with them to the first Mont de Marsen festival…
Andrew ; He wanted to use it as a warehouse, where he could store things and sell them in bulk. One day, I was standing outside and two of them, Rat and Brian I think, were walking by. We’d seen each other around so we got talking. They told me about their band and asked if I’d manage them. They knew that I knew various people and had some contacts…
Susan ; Plus, you had access to a van, which is always useful for a new band…
Andrew ; It really was as simple as that. I just happened to be having a cup of coffee or eating a sandwich outside, taking a break from painting the walls or something. They happened to be passing by, as they were rehearsing at a nearby church hall at the time. We didn’t really know each other but we’d seen each other around, so we just said ‘Hi’ and started having a chat. They told me about their band and asked if I wanted to come down to the rehearsal to hear them. I ended up walking down the street with them and thought, this sounds interesting, so it just went on from there. The first thing I did was arrange for them to rehearse at John Krivine’s warehouse down in Bermondsey.
Susan : They brought-in Dave Vanian to sing about the same time. I think the first time I saw them was in some little pub, and they were so fast, completely bananas and mad… That was really the moment for me. And luckily, they’re still doing it, which is great !
Andrew ; They just rehearsed, rehearsed and rehearsed, so they got really good quite quickly.
Susan ; The songs that Brian wrote were so good. I mean, when you listen to the Sex Pistols, some of the songs do sound a bit like Mott The Hoople or someone else, but The Damned really had their own, thrashing sound.
Andrew ; They had their own influences, of course, but what they came up with was first rate.
Susan ; And you continued to manage them until you went with them to the first Mont de Marsen festival…
Andrew ; Well, my way of managing them was different to other people, perhaps a bit calmer and a bit more controlled. What they were looking for was the archetypal, crazy, drugged-out rock’n’roll manager and that just wasn’t me. They were always taking speed, so I couldn’t get much sense out of them anyway, and it just wasn’t my way of doing things. What finally happened was that I got them a gig at the first Mont de Marsen Festival, through some French promoter who came our way as I’d been giving out flyers in all the alternative record shops. It all happened at quite short notice. They were a band short because somebody had pulled out, so they booked The Damned. It was a bit of a joke, really, because they called it a Punk Rock Festival but there weren’t really any punk bands. It was older bands like The Gorillas and Chris Spedding, but we ended up on the coach and went over on the ferry across the Channel. We drove all the way to Lyons, where we stopped-off overnight and that’s where they started going a little bit berserk. They began knocking back beer on top of the speed they’d taken and started causing mayhem at the hotel, which was just a pleasant rural place. I went to bed at a sensible time, maybe 10.00, but they came barging back into the hotel at around 1.00 in the morning. Dave had come back to the hotel at the same time as me, as he was tired and wasn’t doing what they were doing, so it was really down to Rat, Brian and Captain Sensible, who were playing at being in a rock’n’roll band. They got rather noisy and I didn’t need it because I had to get up early the next morning to sort things out. Eventually, the Hotel manager came knocking at the door, telling us to keep quiet and all the rest of it… The next day, we got back on the coach and were sitting at the back of it. There was a sort of separation between us and the old fart pub rockers down at the front, because they all tended to know each other and had already been on that circuit for some time, whereas The Damned were not really known by the rest of them. So there was a distinct situation of us at the back and everybody else down at the front. The Damned were taking speed and drinking beer, making noise and mayhem and having to stop the coach every half-hour to take a piss ! So there we were, stuck on a coach going from London to the south of France. It was two days going down there, a day or two at the festival and two days coming back, so their antics soon started to become tiresome ! When we arrived at Mont de Marsen, we were booked into a very nice hotel and I’d also managed to get myself a small single room away from the others, hoping to get some peace and quiet. But once again, they started to get a little bit high and began messing around. Doors were slamming and they were drinking and shouting, along with some members of the other bands, until the Hotel manager came to my door at 2.00 in the morning, saying that he was throwing us out ! I just didn’t need all this rubbish, but I managed to get things calmed down and everyone went to sleep. Next day, we went to the festival about midday and it was in a big, open air Bullring which held maybe 5000 people, but The Damned went on really early, maybe 2.00 in the afternoon, and there was hardly anyone there. The whole event was a complete shambles and there were only 500 people in the whole place. In the end. I had to chase around to get paid, but we didn’t even get that in full. It was all a bit of a mess. The following day, we all got on the coach to go back to London, and basically, Jake Riviera was making friends with them. I think he may have been the person who actually booked the coach, as he was already involved with a lot of those older bands. But I think he probably saw the potential in The Damned so, on the way back, they were chatting and chatting and I think The Damned would have probably seen him more as their kind of manager than I was. So at some point on the way back, they decided that Jake should be their manager and I said, Fine. I just said, Pay me the money that you owe me up to now, and that will be that. I’d invested maybe £300 or £400 in them up to then, so they said okay and when we got home, that was it.
But even those experiences hadn’t put you off being involved with the new bands that were emerging and a few months later, you found yourselves arranging to promote gigs at Chaguarama’s, soon to become better known as the Roxy…
Susan ; We went down to see the club, which by then was very run-down. It actually looked quite sad… there was only one tatty glitterball and a champagne bucket without any champagne… Which we still have at home, by the way. It’s the only thing we managed to keep from the Roxy !
Andrew ; Although nowadays, it’s always full !
Susan ; It all came about because Andrew had stopped managing The Damned after he came back from the Mont de Marsen trip, but then got involved with Chelsea and Gene October. Andrew said he’d manage them, after Steph Raynor had tried to do it, and I just thought, Oh no, here we go again ! Gene October actually arranged the booking for the first night at the Roxy, because he already knew it as Chaguaramas. But before the gig happened, the rest of the band walked-out on him and became Generation X, so they ended-up playing the gig…
One of the things that doesn’t get mentioned in many of the Punk retrospectives nowadays is the crossover between the Punk scene and the Gay scene in London, at least in the very early days…
Andrew ; The crossover was because they were both groups of outcasts. The Gay scene was still not accepted back then, even if it wasn’t illegal anymore, so they would have their own little clubs. Punks, because they looked weird, didn’t fit-in anywhere else but were accepted by the Gay scene because they were more open-minded. This was before all the headlines started, along with the violence and everything else. The people in the Gay clubs were just saw all these colourful interesting people in lots of plastic, leather and rubber…
Susan ; We used to go to one club in Henrietta Street called Mandy’s, which was a real gentleman’s Gay Club. It would be full of barristers with their rent boys or whatever. We’d turn up wearing our plastic trousers and strange clothes, but they’d accept us and we’d like them. There were no barriers at all as long as you felt comfortable and no-one felt threatened. We also used to go to Bangs on Monday nights…
Andrew : This would have probably been in 1975 and by then, the Gay scene was beginning to stand up for itself. In London, it resulted in Bangs, which was the first big Gay disco. It held maybe a thousand people, in what became the Sundown Disco and later on, the Astoria (LA2). It was popular because it was the first time a big Gay audience could go to somewhere that didn’t feel seedy. We liked it because we enjoyed the music and they liked us because we were colourful and different. The way we were dressing on the street was quite unusual but the Gay scene understood it.
Susan ; In the early Seventies, it had all been frocks and locks, but suddenly we all changed our wardrobes and started going to secondhand shops and jumble sales to buy Fifties clothes. As it went on, we started looking for tight jeans and mohair jumpers and then discovered Vivienne and her plastic trousers ! We loved her stuff and got into that, but would still also mix’n-match it with the things we found at jumble sales.
Susan ; We went down to see the club, which by then was very run-down. It actually looked quite sad… there was only one tatty glitterball and a champagne bucket without any champagne… Which we still have at home, by the way. It’s the only thing we managed to keep from the Roxy !
Andrew ; Although nowadays, it’s always full !
Susan ; It all came about because Andrew had stopped managing The Damned after he came back from the Mont de Marsen trip, but then got involved with Chelsea and Gene October. Andrew said he’d manage them, after Steph Raynor had tried to do it, and I just thought, Oh no, here we go again ! Gene October actually arranged the booking for the first night at the Roxy, because he already knew it as Chaguaramas. But before the gig happened, the rest of the band walked-out on him and became Generation X, so they ended-up playing the gig…
One of the things that doesn’t get mentioned in many of the Punk retrospectives nowadays is the crossover between the Punk scene and the Gay scene in London, at least in the very early days…
Andrew ; The crossover was because they were both groups of outcasts. The Gay scene was still not accepted back then, even if it wasn’t illegal anymore, so they would have their own little clubs. Punks, because they looked weird, didn’t fit-in anywhere else but were accepted by the Gay scene because they were more open-minded. This was before all the headlines started, along with the violence and everything else. The people in the Gay clubs were just saw all these colourful interesting people in lots of plastic, leather and rubber…
Susan ; We used to go to one club in Henrietta Street called Mandy’s, which was a real gentleman’s Gay Club. It would be full of barristers with their rent boys or whatever. We’d turn up wearing our plastic trousers and strange clothes, but they’d accept us and we’d like them. There were no barriers at all as long as you felt comfortable and no-one felt threatened. We also used to go to Bangs on Monday nights…
Andrew : This would have probably been in 1975 and by then, the Gay scene was beginning to stand up for itself. In London, it resulted in Bangs, which was the first big Gay disco. It held maybe a thousand people, in what became the Sundown Disco and later on, the Astoria (LA2). It was popular because it was the first time a big Gay audience could go to somewhere that didn’t feel seedy. We liked it because we enjoyed the music and they liked us because we were colourful and different. The way we were dressing on the street was quite unusual but the Gay scene understood it.
Susan ; In the early Seventies, it had all been frocks and locks, but suddenly we all changed our wardrobes and started going to secondhand shops and jumble sales to buy Fifties clothes. As it went on, we started looking for tight jeans and mohair jumpers and then discovered Vivienne and her plastic trousers ! We loved her stuff and got into that, but would still also mix’n-match it with the things we found at jumble sales.
The other thing that crossed-over with Punk was the Reggae scene, particularly through Don Letts DJ-ing at the Roxy…
Andrew ; It wasn’t a conscious thing but, like me, a lot of people were growing up in places like Brixton so when you walked through the streets, the vibe would often be Bluebeat, Ska and Reggae. It was always there almost as a sort of soundtrack.
Susan ; We already knew Don from Acme Attractions and used to visit him when he lived in Forest Hill. He had a huge record collection and used to play Reggae at the shop. Andrew had made the booking to put-on the band that became Generation X, so he said to Don, Why don’t you come down and play records at the club ? The thing was, there were only a few ‘punk’ records at that time, things like Lou Reed, Stooges, New York Dolls, MC5, so Andrew invited him to come down and play records at the opening night. At first, he said he couldn’t or didn’t want to do that, but somehow Andrew talked him into doing it…
Andrew ; I agreed to pay for his taxi !
Susan ; ... so he came on the night and it was a huge success and everybody loved what he was playing. It wasn’t in your face, whereas the bands would be, so the two things really balanced out.
Andrew ; I think if you lived in South London, you would be familiar with Brixton, and in North London it would be Ladbroke Grove, so all the bands who were coming to the Roxy understood Reggae as a rebellious sound, for want of a better description. It certainly wasn’t pop or mainstream, so when we brought Don in, the audience already had an understanding of the records he played, even though it wasn’t necessarily intentional on our part. We just brought all of these little accidents together !
Susan ; And that continued when someone he knew gave him a camera and he started filming the bands when they played. At first, I think it was probably just something for him to do while the bands were playing, but of course it eventually became the ‘Punk Rock Movie’. None of this was ever planned, it just came together as it went along. People like Malcolm and Bernie all liked to claim that they had these big masterplans to change the world, but really, they just tried to take credit for all the things that came together almost by accident.
Andrew ; It wasn’t a conscious thing but, like me, a lot of people were growing up in places like Brixton so when you walked through the streets, the vibe would often be Bluebeat, Ska and Reggae. It was always there almost as a sort of soundtrack.
Susan ; We already knew Don from Acme Attractions and used to visit him when he lived in Forest Hill. He had a huge record collection and used to play Reggae at the shop. Andrew had made the booking to put-on the band that became Generation X, so he said to Don, Why don’t you come down and play records at the club ? The thing was, there were only a few ‘punk’ records at that time, things like Lou Reed, Stooges, New York Dolls, MC5, so Andrew invited him to come down and play records at the opening night. At first, he said he couldn’t or didn’t want to do that, but somehow Andrew talked him into doing it…
Andrew ; I agreed to pay for his taxi !
Susan ; ... so he came on the night and it was a huge success and everybody loved what he was playing. It wasn’t in your face, whereas the bands would be, so the two things really balanced out.
Andrew ; I think if you lived in South London, you would be familiar with Brixton, and in North London it would be Ladbroke Grove, so all the bands who were coming to the Roxy understood Reggae as a rebellious sound, for want of a better description. It certainly wasn’t pop or mainstream, so when we brought Don in, the audience already had an understanding of the records he played, even though it wasn’t necessarily intentional on our part. We just brought all of these little accidents together !
Susan ; And that continued when someone he knew gave him a camera and he started filming the bands when they played. At first, I think it was probably just something for him to do while the bands were playing, but of course it eventually became the ‘Punk Rock Movie’. None of this was ever planned, it just came together as it went along. People like Malcolm and Bernie all liked to claim that they had these big masterplans to change the world, but really, they just tried to take credit for all the things that came together almost by accident.
It’s often stated that the Roxy was the home of the early UK Punk scene, but it’s missed that you also promoted several of the early US bands, in particular the Heatbreakers but also Wayne County and Cherry Vanilla… the Heartbreakers shows in particular are often mentioned as being amongst the best they ever played…
Andrew : I think that’s true. In fact, I have to say their album was kind of disappointing when it eventually came out, compared to how they sounded live. But that’s purely in terms of the recording rather than the songs or the musicianship. No-one really knows what went on and I’ve been told that when they heard the original tracks in the studio it sounded great and was just as powerful as they were live but somewhere along the way later on, something went wrong. Some people blame the people who actually cut the disk but I know they also had a lot of problems with their label, Track Records. Funnily enough, the two guys who owned Track, Chris and Danny, came down to The Roxy once because they’d heard that we were having problems and had decided that they wanted to buy the club. They offered £5000, which was a lot of money back then, but we foolishly said no !
Susan : We were exceptionally pompous about it ! ‘How dare you want to buy our club, even if we are having a miserable time !’ But there were a lot of people sniffing around the club by then…
Andrew ; Anyway, Track went bust and the band heard that the bailiffs were just about to go in and take all of the tapes, so Leee Black Childers sneaked into the office and retrieved the Heartbreakers’ tapes before anyone else got them.
One of the accusations that has been made against the Heartbreakers is that they were responsible for introducing heroin into the Punk scene. In retrospect, do you think that was fair ?
Andrew ; Oh no, we never thought that. Heroin had always been around, otherwise, how were they getting it when they came here ? But I suppose you have to be part of a certain scene to get introduced to it and for some people, the Heartbreakers provided that.
Susan ; Keith Richards was probably the first rock star to inadvertently make it appear glamorous and in the same way, a lot of people were also attracted to the whole Johnny Thunders high-as-a-kite image…
Andrew ; Like a lot of these things, you have to be involved with a certain group of people to get introduced to these things and I think, for some people, Johnny Thunders and the Heartbreakers were that gateway.
Susan ; If anything, Nancy Spungen has to take the blame for introducing heroin to poor little Sid and it was his subsequent notoriety that made a lot of people curious about it. But Sid was a bit like a sweet little kid in many ways, and just got out of his depth.
Andrew : I think that’s true. In fact, I have to say their album was kind of disappointing when it eventually came out, compared to how they sounded live. But that’s purely in terms of the recording rather than the songs or the musicianship. No-one really knows what went on and I’ve been told that when they heard the original tracks in the studio it sounded great and was just as powerful as they were live but somewhere along the way later on, something went wrong. Some people blame the people who actually cut the disk but I know they also had a lot of problems with their label, Track Records. Funnily enough, the two guys who owned Track, Chris and Danny, came down to The Roxy once because they’d heard that we were having problems and had decided that they wanted to buy the club. They offered £5000, which was a lot of money back then, but we foolishly said no !
Susan : We were exceptionally pompous about it ! ‘How dare you want to buy our club, even if we are having a miserable time !’ But there were a lot of people sniffing around the club by then…
Andrew ; Anyway, Track went bust and the band heard that the bailiffs were just about to go in and take all of the tapes, so Leee Black Childers sneaked into the office and retrieved the Heartbreakers’ tapes before anyone else got them.
One of the accusations that has been made against the Heartbreakers is that they were responsible for introducing heroin into the Punk scene. In retrospect, do you think that was fair ?
Andrew ; Oh no, we never thought that. Heroin had always been around, otherwise, how were they getting it when they came here ? But I suppose you have to be part of a certain scene to get introduced to it and for some people, the Heartbreakers provided that.
Susan ; Keith Richards was probably the first rock star to inadvertently make it appear glamorous and in the same way, a lot of people were also attracted to the whole Johnny Thunders high-as-a-kite image…
Andrew ; Like a lot of these things, you have to be involved with a certain group of people to get introduced to these things and I think, for some people, Johnny Thunders and the Heartbreakers were that gateway.
Susan ; If anything, Nancy Spungen has to take the blame for introducing heroin to poor little Sid and it was his subsequent notoriety that made a lot of people curious about it. But Sid was a bit like a sweet little kid in many ways, and just got out of his depth.
You include a quote by Mick Jones in the book where he says that he considers the 100 nights of the Roxy as ‘the lifespan of Punk.’ Is that a sentiment that you agree with ?
Susan ; Well, no, because it certainly continued after that. We were probably not so aware of how it continued, but that was because we’d had enough and were looking towards the next thing by then…
Andrew ; It was more a case that the Roxy was the centre of things for this very intense period.
Susan ; It never stopped for us during that time so when we finished with it, that was that. Things had started to get nasty.
Andrew ; I think that initial period was the best time because after that was when the business side of things started to get involved. But you can’t help that. If you start something and it starts to be a success, that’s what happens. People say that if you make money it’s commercialisation, but you can’t sell it if people don’t want it. The press created this interest right across the country and if you were a teenager at the time, you’d want to find out about it. That was when all these things like spitting and pushing and pogo-ing started to become fashionable, because these new kids didn’t have any other reference point apart from what they read in the papers. But at the same time, here we are 40 years later still talking about the impact of the initial movement, so it must have had a considerable positive impression as well.
Most of the bands who played at the Roxy during your original tenure went on to record and release records and you were also directly involved in the release of the ‘Live at the Roxy’ compilation album. What do you think of those recordings if and when you hear them nowadays ?
Susan ; I don’t think either of us had actually listened to any of that stuff for ages, but while we’ve been doing these interviews for the book, we’ve been hearing a lot of the old records again and I’ve been surprised that most of them still sound rather good after all these years. Listening to things like the early Clash records, they really don’t sound bad at all !
Andrew : I’ve actually got the original, mixed mastertapes for the Roxy album and I was a bit concerned about them as Quarter-inch tapes can deteriorate over time. So I spoke to Roger Armstrong at Ace Records and he said what you have to do is ‘bake’ them, which gets the oxide back onto the tapes. He did that for me and made a quick copy onto CD, so when I got home I listened to it and I was impressed that it really stands up. I had a fear that I’d listen to it now and just think, Oh God, it’s just a load of noise, but it still stands up and in particular, Johnny Moped stands up really well. I mean, they weren’t strictly a Punk band, but they were really good at what they were doing.
Susan ; But that was another thing about the Roxy. If you look at the audience, not everyone was dressing up outrageously, some people did still have long hair and wear flares but they were just there for the music.
Andrew ; It’s something that we’ve tried to get across in interviews. When people talk about the ‘Punk sound’, there wasn’t one ! If you listen to all of those early bands, they all sounded completely different. Look at the Stranglers, Buzzcocks, the Pistols, the Damned, Johnny Moped, Generation X… they were all completely different. You cannot say that there was one common sound and it wasn’t until later on, with what I call the ‘third-generation’ bands, that it seemed to adopt a uniform style. That quickly became very uninteresting but the early bands were all very different. They all came under the ‘Punk’ title, but really it was just something that the journalists had laid down on them. Although in some ways it had to happen, because these bands were clearly not part of the previous Pub Rock thing and it had to be regarded as something different, even if they weren’t all doing the same thing.
Susan ; Well, no, because it certainly continued after that. We were probably not so aware of how it continued, but that was because we’d had enough and were looking towards the next thing by then…
Andrew ; It was more a case that the Roxy was the centre of things for this very intense period.
Susan ; It never stopped for us during that time so when we finished with it, that was that. Things had started to get nasty.
Andrew ; I think that initial period was the best time because after that was when the business side of things started to get involved. But you can’t help that. If you start something and it starts to be a success, that’s what happens. People say that if you make money it’s commercialisation, but you can’t sell it if people don’t want it. The press created this interest right across the country and if you were a teenager at the time, you’d want to find out about it. That was when all these things like spitting and pushing and pogo-ing started to become fashionable, because these new kids didn’t have any other reference point apart from what they read in the papers. But at the same time, here we are 40 years later still talking about the impact of the initial movement, so it must have had a considerable positive impression as well.
Most of the bands who played at the Roxy during your original tenure went on to record and release records and you were also directly involved in the release of the ‘Live at the Roxy’ compilation album. What do you think of those recordings if and when you hear them nowadays ?
Susan ; I don’t think either of us had actually listened to any of that stuff for ages, but while we’ve been doing these interviews for the book, we’ve been hearing a lot of the old records again and I’ve been surprised that most of them still sound rather good after all these years. Listening to things like the early Clash records, they really don’t sound bad at all !
Andrew : I’ve actually got the original, mixed mastertapes for the Roxy album and I was a bit concerned about them as Quarter-inch tapes can deteriorate over time. So I spoke to Roger Armstrong at Ace Records and he said what you have to do is ‘bake’ them, which gets the oxide back onto the tapes. He did that for me and made a quick copy onto CD, so when I got home I listened to it and I was impressed that it really stands up. I had a fear that I’d listen to it now and just think, Oh God, it’s just a load of noise, but it still stands up and in particular, Johnny Moped stands up really well. I mean, they weren’t strictly a Punk band, but they were really good at what they were doing.
Susan ; But that was another thing about the Roxy. If you look at the audience, not everyone was dressing up outrageously, some people did still have long hair and wear flares but they were just there for the music.
Andrew ; It’s something that we’ve tried to get across in interviews. When people talk about the ‘Punk sound’, there wasn’t one ! If you listen to all of those early bands, they all sounded completely different. Look at the Stranglers, Buzzcocks, the Pistols, the Damned, Johnny Moped, Generation X… they were all completely different. You cannot say that there was one common sound and it wasn’t until later on, with what I call the ‘third-generation’ bands, that it seemed to adopt a uniform style. That quickly became very uninteresting but the early bands were all very different. They all came under the ‘Punk’ title, but really it was just something that the journalists had laid down on them. Although in some ways it had to happen, because these bands were clearly not part of the previous Pub Rock thing and it had to be regarded as something different, even if they weren’t all doing the same thing.
Two of the people who made their names attending and writing about gigs at the Roxy were Tony parsons and Julie Burchill, but I get the impression that you didn’t hold them in any esteem…
Andrew ; I don’t think we ever really met them. I can’t recall ever speaking to them.
Susan ; The were very young at the time. You’d see them standing at the back and you’d think, have they come to the wrong place ? Then they wrote that ‘Fear & Loathing at The Roxy’ article, which wasn’t particularly nice about us or the club, but the irony was that we got busier after it was published. We found that quite funny. We did meet Caroline Coon, because she used to come down with Hamish McAlpine… like a lot of these rich kids, they seemed to like the idea of going somewhere that was a little bit naughty ! She also brought someone down from Nova magazine… They were all a little bit older than us, but I can’t ever remember meeting Julie Burchill. I do remember Jane Suck, who worked for Sounds, and I often talked to her.
Andrew ; I think Mark P was the only person we spoke to regularly, although of course, ‘Sniffin’ Glue’ was completely different to the mainstream music papers. He was always very enthusiastic about what we were doing.
You’re time running the original Roxy was actually pretty short, from 14/12/76 to 23/4/77. It must have been very frustrating for you at the time, but in retrospect, do you think it’s appropriate that it encapsulated such a short, intense period of time ?
Susan ; I think so. It meant that we didn’t end up getting bored with it and it never had a chance to just become a routine.
Andrew ; We never looked at the things that happened negatively. Obviously, we were annoyed about some of the things, but we didn’t cry over them. We just looked for another way forward and kept ploughing-on.
Susan ; We were too busy looking for the next thing that would entertain us.
After you were evicted from the Roxy, the running of the club was taken over by Kevin St John, who had a particularly shady reputation…
Andrew ; He was a weird one.
Susan : I think he had only recently come out of prison. The barrister who owned the Roxy premises already knew him and brought him down to the club one night when it was really busy, because he thought they could do it themselves.
Andrew : I think Gene October already knew him from the gay scene, and one day he said that we should go and meet Kevin, because he might want to get involved and put some money into the club. So we went to his house and it must have been the seediest place in the world, really filthy and dirty.
Susan ; Mirrors on the ceiling and plastic, leatherette furnishings…
Andrew ; He even had a sauna in there, which was only about the size of this table. He suggested that we go in there to have a sauna together, but I’d already seen that he had all these cameras set-up around the house !
Susan ; I think that was when we ran-out ! We weren’t that daft.
Andrew ; I don’t think we ever really met them. I can’t recall ever speaking to them.
Susan ; The were very young at the time. You’d see them standing at the back and you’d think, have they come to the wrong place ? Then they wrote that ‘Fear & Loathing at The Roxy’ article, which wasn’t particularly nice about us or the club, but the irony was that we got busier after it was published. We found that quite funny. We did meet Caroline Coon, because she used to come down with Hamish McAlpine… like a lot of these rich kids, they seemed to like the idea of going somewhere that was a little bit naughty ! She also brought someone down from Nova magazine… They were all a little bit older than us, but I can’t ever remember meeting Julie Burchill. I do remember Jane Suck, who worked for Sounds, and I often talked to her.
Andrew ; I think Mark P was the only person we spoke to regularly, although of course, ‘Sniffin’ Glue’ was completely different to the mainstream music papers. He was always very enthusiastic about what we were doing.
You’re time running the original Roxy was actually pretty short, from 14/12/76 to 23/4/77. It must have been very frustrating for you at the time, but in retrospect, do you think it’s appropriate that it encapsulated such a short, intense period of time ?
Susan ; I think so. It meant that we didn’t end up getting bored with it and it never had a chance to just become a routine.
Andrew ; We never looked at the things that happened negatively. Obviously, we were annoyed about some of the things, but we didn’t cry over them. We just looked for another way forward and kept ploughing-on.
Susan ; We were too busy looking for the next thing that would entertain us.
After you were evicted from the Roxy, the running of the club was taken over by Kevin St John, who had a particularly shady reputation…
Andrew ; He was a weird one.
Susan : I think he had only recently come out of prison. The barrister who owned the Roxy premises already knew him and brought him down to the club one night when it was really busy, because he thought they could do it themselves.
Andrew : I think Gene October already knew him from the gay scene, and one day he said that we should go and meet Kevin, because he might want to get involved and put some money into the club. So we went to his house and it must have been the seediest place in the world, really filthy and dirty.
Susan ; Mirrors on the ceiling and plastic, leatherette furnishings…
Andrew ; He even had a sauna in there, which was only about the size of this table. He suggested that we go in there to have a sauna together, but I’d already seen that he had all these cameras set-up around the house !
Susan ; I think that was when we ran-out ! We weren’t that daft.
Rather than being put-off by the fate of the original Roxy, you started to look for premises for a new club and were involved with the opening of the Vortex, which soon took over as the premier Punk venue in London. However, even before the opening night, you were forced out of the arrangement by certain unsavoury elements. Did it surprise you that so many basically criminal characters tried to co-opt your efforts so quickly ?
Andrew : Not really. It’s something that’s never really changed in London and there always been those kind of characters. The guy who took over the Vortex from us was John Miller who, a few years later, made the failed attempt to kidnap Ronnie Biggs from Brazil. These were blokes who only had muscle and had been working as bouncers, but suddenly saw a way to make more money. They were ex-soldiers and supposedly ex-mercenaries… At the Roxy, the actual owner was also a barrister who specialized in criminal law, so while he had been running the place as Chaguaramas he would also have evenings when the place would be full of East End gangsters and probably a few policemen as well. He’d talk to these people and I’m sure that’s probably why the two robberies occurred at the Roxy while we were there, because he really hated us.
Susan ; It was probably because people liked us and what we were doing, but no-one really liked him !
Andrew ; Things were already getting weird at the Roxy some time before they kicked us out. After that, we were looking for another venue and someone suggested a place in Wardour Street which was called Crackers. The owner wasn’t really our kind of person at all, but he said he could arrange for us to use it so I said okay and started to do the promotion for it. They weren’t the kind of people I really wanted to work with but I thought, as long as I’m running the event it’ll be fine. On the first night, I got there early to meet the bands and do the soundchecks and whatever, but two big thugs were standing at the door waiting for me. They asked what I was doing when I tried to go in but when I told them I was running the event, they just told me, ‘No, you’re not.’ And that was it ! The really annoying thing was that the club was quite successful because we’d already arranged the gigs for the following weeks and the bands had already signed to do them. So, after that, we decided that we wouldn’t do anything else until we were able to get our own place. When we started the Fridge, we made sure that we had the lease for the premises.
Andrew : Not really. It’s something that’s never really changed in London and there always been those kind of characters. The guy who took over the Vortex from us was John Miller who, a few years later, made the failed attempt to kidnap Ronnie Biggs from Brazil. These were blokes who only had muscle and had been working as bouncers, but suddenly saw a way to make more money. They were ex-soldiers and supposedly ex-mercenaries… At the Roxy, the actual owner was also a barrister who specialized in criminal law, so while he had been running the place as Chaguaramas he would also have evenings when the place would be full of East End gangsters and probably a few policemen as well. He’d talk to these people and I’m sure that’s probably why the two robberies occurred at the Roxy while we were there, because he really hated us.
Susan ; It was probably because people liked us and what we were doing, but no-one really liked him !
Andrew ; Things were already getting weird at the Roxy some time before they kicked us out. After that, we were looking for another venue and someone suggested a place in Wardour Street which was called Crackers. The owner wasn’t really our kind of person at all, but he said he could arrange for us to use it so I said okay and started to do the promotion for it. They weren’t the kind of people I really wanted to work with but I thought, as long as I’m running the event it’ll be fine. On the first night, I got there early to meet the bands and do the soundchecks and whatever, but two big thugs were standing at the door waiting for me. They asked what I was doing when I tried to go in but when I told them I was running the event, they just told me, ‘No, you’re not.’ And that was it ! The really annoying thing was that the club was quite successful because we’d already arranged the gigs for the following weeks and the bands had already signed to do them. So, after that, we decided that we wouldn’t do anything else until we were able to get our own place. When we started the Fridge, we made sure that we had the lease for the premises.
Susan ; In between times, we took over a building at 29 James Street in Covent Garden. You have to remember, Covent Garden was very different then to how it is now. It was mostly old warehouses and everything was black, dark and dreary.
Andrew ; A lot of it was still bombsites from the Second World War.
Susan : We saw an advert in a paper and went to have a look at this building. Andrew saw it and had it sussed straight away… We could rent out rooms for people who had bands or who ran PR, we could have a shop at the front and rehearsal studios in the basement… And by studios, I just mean rooms with mattresses on the walls, it wasn’t like Abbey Road or whatever ! We spoke to people we already knew and Steph Raynor wanted to set-up her own shop called PX, so that became the ground floor.
Andrew ; I just wanted somewhere I could use as our headquarters. This place was perfect, so I just started phoning people I knew to see if they wanted to rent any of the rooms in the rest of the building.
Susan : We knew it would only be temporary, because the GLC wanted to redevelop the whole area and make it what it is now. But it was really good fun for us while we were there. And I think we can claim that we held the first ever warehouse party while we were there ! That was when Sid Vicious tried to stab Ari Up and Andrew saved her…
Andrew ; And got stabbed by him in the process… I’ve still got the t-shirt that saved me ! But it was actually a good party, even though Steve Strange was standing out in the street selling ‘tickets’ to tourists to let them in ! That was him all over, he really was a bread-head. I even managed his first real band, The Protons, later on and arranged their first gig. I’d bought these really nice suits for them to wear and they looked really good, but then at the gig, Steve turned up wearing all these clothes from Vivienne’s new Pirate style !
Susan ; I never knew why Andrew kept agreeing to manage bands. I mean, even if they do get famous, they just dump the people who they started with and go with someone professional.
There is a recurring theme in the book that you get asked to manage a band, you agree almost immediately but part company after a short time, declaring that you’ll never do it again. Only for the same thing to happen a few pages later…
Andrew ; Yeah, it took a long time for it to really sink in… I’d probably give it another go now if someone asked me !
Susan ; But it can be fun getting in a van with a band only for it to break down on the motorway. We took Johnny Moped to Manchester once which was a disaster…
Andrew ; We put a gig on at the Belleview in Manchester, with several of the bands who had been on the Roxy album. I drove the van up there, but on the way back, the gear box literally fell onto the motorway. Fortunately, we were near a petrol station so we just about managed to crawl in there. We were all standing there looking lost and a car pulled-up with this sweet Indian couple and they offered a lift back to London. So the band went with them but we had to stay with the van to make sure it got back to London…
Susan ; Yes, we were daft back then…
And you also, briefly, managed Wire…
Susan ; I was actually surprised how good the Wire recordings sound now, because I didn’t really like them very much at the time. When Andrew managed them, that was the worst thing to do…
Andrew ; I think I decided not to carry on working with them because they were too analytical. They wanted to have a meeting to discuss everything that we did. I wanted to leave them to write and play the music and I’d get on with promoting them. But that wasn’t enough, they wanted to discuss it all.
Susan ; I think you suggested that they wear pink plastic trousers at one point and they were astounded ! I think that was when it came to an end… they said that they’d lost their sense of meaning with Andrew, or something like that.
Andrew ; A lot of it was still bombsites from the Second World War.
Susan : We saw an advert in a paper and went to have a look at this building. Andrew saw it and had it sussed straight away… We could rent out rooms for people who had bands or who ran PR, we could have a shop at the front and rehearsal studios in the basement… And by studios, I just mean rooms with mattresses on the walls, it wasn’t like Abbey Road or whatever ! We spoke to people we already knew and Steph Raynor wanted to set-up her own shop called PX, so that became the ground floor.
Andrew ; I just wanted somewhere I could use as our headquarters. This place was perfect, so I just started phoning people I knew to see if they wanted to rent any of the rooms in the rest of the building.
Susan : We knew it would only be temporary, because the GLC wanted to redevelop the whole area and make it what it is now. But it was really good fun for us while we were there. And I think we can claim that we held the first ever warehouse party while we were there ! That was when Sid Vicious tried to stab Ari Up and Andrew saved her…
Andrew ; And got stabbed by him in the process… I’ve still got the t-shirt that saved me ! But it was actually a good party, even though Steve Strange was standing out in the street selling ‘tickets’ to tourists to let them in ! That was him all over, he really was a bread-head. I even managed his first real band, The Protons, later on and arranged their first gig. I’d bought these really nice suits for them to wear and they looked really good, but then at the gig, Steve turned up wearing all these clothes from Vivienne’s new Pirate style !
Susan ; I never knew why Andrew kept agreeing to manage bands. I mean, even if they do get famous, they just dump the people who they started with and go with someone professional.
There is a recurring theme in the book that you get asked to manage a band, you agree almost immediately but part company after a short time, declaring that you’ll never do it again. Only for the same thing to happen a few pages later…
Andrew ; Yeah, it took a long time for it to really sink in… I’d probably give it another go now if someone asked me !
Susan ; But it can be fun getting in a van with a band only for it to break down on the motorway. We took Johnny Moped to Manchester once which was a disaster…
Andrew ; We put a gig on at the Belleview in Manchester, with several of the bands who had been on the Roxy album. I drove the van up there, but on the way back, the gear box literally fell onto the motorway. Fortunately, we were near a petrol station so we just about managed to crawl in there. We were all standing there looking lost and a car pulled-up with this sweet Indian couple and they offered a lift back to London. So the band went with them but we had to stay with the van to make sure it got back to London…
Susan ; Yes, we were daft back then…
And you also, briefly, managed Wire…
Susan ; I was actually surprised how good the Wire recordings sound now, because I didn’t really like them very much at the time. When Andrew managed them, that was the worst thing to do…
Andrew ; I think I decided not to carry on working with them because they were too analytical. They wanted to have a meeting to discuss everything that we did. I wanted to leave them to write and play the music and I’d get on with promoting them. But that wasn’t enough, they wanted to discuss it all.
Susan ; I think you suggested that they wear pink plastic trousers at one point and they were astounded ! I think that was when it came to an end… they said that they’d lost their sense of meaning with Andrew, or something like that.
You’ve already mentioned that after the Roxy and the debacle with the Vortex, you went on to manage the premises in James Street. But eventually, you returned to running a club, The Fridge, in Brixton…
Andrew ; The thing is, I think a lot of people have a moment in their lives where there’s an explosion of awareness and they make their mark. Some people successfully move on from there while for others, that’s their sole impact on the world and they end up spending the rest of their lives talking about it, just retreading and rehashing things. I think we genuinely feel that we were able to move on to other things that also made their mark.
Susan ; I think we did… the first Fridge opened in 1981, on the site of the original Ram Jam club and the whole interior was so opposite to the Roxy. The Roxy had been this dark, dingy basement, but with the Fridge we had a white interior with stainless steel, to resemble the interior of a fridge. That might sound a bit corny now, but in 1981 it was quite an interesting theme. Of course, some people didn’t like it because they still wanted the Roxy but we’d already done that and didn’t want to do it again. We didn’t want to keep on doing the same thing, so the people who didn’t like it, walked out, and the people who did like it, loved it !
I won’t go into your exploits with The Fridge at this point, so I’ll skip right up to the present day and the re-publication of ‘100 Nights At The Roxy’ and the publication of your own book, ‘The Roxy, London 1976-77’. The two books together really document the feel and atmosphere of the club – ‘100 Nights’ is almost entirely photo’s and images from the original club, while ‘Our Story’ is made up of photo’s, artwork, documents and extracts from Susans’ diary, telling the whole story as accurately as possible. Both are also published in a large format. What made you decide to make them available together at the same time in this style ?
Susan ; One of the reasons why we decided to do the books in this format was that we wanted it to be almost like a source for research, something that you can go back to.
Andrew ; We haven’t released it in a download version and we don’t intend to for at least a year or two, because we want people to physically connect with it. I think there’s already been too many of these nasty little punky books and it seems that everyone has got in on it having only done their research on Wikipedia or Google. Another reason why we did this book was because we wanted to correct the source of information. It’s not a detailed record and some people have already told us that some of the things didn’t happen on the days that we say they did, but even if they’re right, they’re missing the purpose of the book.
Susan ; We also published the books ourselves. We had a bit of money because we recently sold the lease to the property in Brixton, so we just said, sod the publishers, let’s do it the way we want it to be. We didn’t want it to be too in depth and we wanted to make people laugh at the way it all happened.
Andrew : That’s right, it’s a day-by-day, blow-by-blow account of what actually happened, including the mistakes we made, and that’s it. ‘100 Nights’ gives you a visual idea of what it was like and this one now tells you what happened.
Susan ; We’ve been doing loads of interviews to plug the book, which might sound quite materialistic, but that’s what we decided to do. We used to do so many interviews in the past that we eventually decided that we wouldn’t do anymore unless we had something to sell !
Andrew ; All we ever wanted to do was improve our lives and some would say that we’ve achieved that. We started off at the bottom of the heap…
Susan ; We didn’t come from a well-off background but either-way, I was not going to be a typist and Andrew was not going to work in a factory.
Andrew ; The thing is, I think a lot of people have a moment in their lives where there’s an explosion of awareness and they make their mark. Some people successfully move on from there while for others, that’s their sole impact on the world and they end up spending the rest of their lives talking about it, just retreading and rehashing things. I think we genuinely feel that we were able to move on to other things that also made their mark.
Susan ; I think we did… the first Fridge opened in 1981, on the site of the original Ram Jam club and the whole interior was so opposite to the Roxy. The Roxy had been this dark, dingy basement, but with the Fridge we had a white interior with stainless steel, to resemble the interior of a fridge. That might sound a bit corny now, but in 1981 it was quite an interesting theme. Of course, some people didn’t like it because they still wanted the Roxy but we’d already done that and didn’t want to do it again. We didn’t want to keep on doing the same thing, so the people who didn’t like it, walked out, and the people who did like it, loved it !
I won’t go into your exploits with The Fridge at this point, so I’ll skip right up to the present day and the re-publication of ‘100 Nights At The Roxy’ and the publication of your own book, ‘The Roxy, London 1976-77’. The two books together really document the feel and atmosphere of the club – ‘100 Nights’ is almost entirely photo’s and images from the original club, while ‘Our Story’ is made up of photo’s, artwork, documents and extracts from Susans’ diary, telling the whole story as accurately as possible. Both are also published in a large format. What made you decide to make them available together at the same time in this style ?
Susan ; One of the reasons why we decided to do the books in this format was that we wanted it to be almost like a source for research, something that you can go back to.
Andrew ; We haven’t released it in a download version and we don’t intend to for at least a year or two, because we want people to physically connect with it. I think there’s already been too many of these nasty little punky books and it seems that everyone has got in on it having only done their research on Wikipedia or Google. Another reason why we did this book was because we wanted to correct the source of information. It’s not a detailed record and some people have already told us that some of the things didn’t happen on the days that we say they did, but even if they’re right, they’re missing the purpose of the book.
Susan ; We also published the books ourselves. We had a bit of money because we recently sold the lease to the property in Brixton, so we just said, sod the publishers, let’s do it the way we want it to be. We didn’t want it to be too in depth and we wanted to make people laugh at the way it all happened.
Andrew : That’s right, it’s a day-by-day, blow-by-blow account of what actually happened, including the mistakes we made, and that’s it. ‘100 Nights’ gives you a visual idea of what it was like and this one now tells you what happened.
Susan ; We’ve been doing loads of interviews to plug the book, which might sound quite materialistic, but that’s what we decided to do. We used to do so many interviews in the past that we eventually decided that we wouldn’t do anymore unless we had something to sell !
Andrew ; All we ever wanted to do was improve our lives and some would say that we’ve achieved that. We started off at the bottom of the heap…
Susan ; We didn’t come from a well-off background but either-way, I was not going to be a typist and Andrew was not going to work in a factory.
The actual site of the Roxy is now inhabited by the Speedo shop. Some people find this quite ironic but looking back at the legacy of the club, how do you feel it should be remembered ?
Andrew ; It’s not something we’d go back just to look at, but about three years ago we went back there for a sort of exhibition…
Susan ; It was put on by Jane Palm-Gold. She had paintings of all these places like the Roxy and Hyper Hyper in Kensington, which no longer exist. She came to interview us and had a very refreshing view towards it.
Andrew ; And more recently, the Seven Dials Trust got in touch with us to say they were going to place a Blue Plaque on the original site of the Roxy. That was almost funny at first, because originally, the various London Councils were all trying to get Punk gigs banned. But at the same time, it’s nice to know that it’s eventually been recognized. The thing is, I think all of the old venues should be properly commemorated, or none of them. You can’t really pick and choose. Personally, I do like the idea that you can walk around London and perhaps you’ll look up, see a plaque and realise what happened on that spot. It’s just a little something that will help you pin down an event or a person that you’ve maybe read or heard about.
Susan ; I think it is good and it’s nice that they do these things. The only sad thing with the places they commemorate is that they usually aren’t open and you can’t go in to really see it.
Andrew ; The funny thing is that when we were running the Fridge, it became so popular that Lambeth Council actually put up signs directing people to it. Now it’s gone, there’s nothing there !
Susan ; But a lot of people still remember it very fondly, especially on the Gay scene. We ran Daisy Chain there, which eventually became Ciao Baby, and on Saturday nights we’d regularly have 2000 people attending.
Andrew ; We haven’t written a book about the Fridge, yet, so it hasn’t really been given the credit it deserves. People tend to think of Ministry of Sound as the main club venue, but they were just better known because they were more of a corporate brand. They knew that and they built on it. But we were just as successful and would have crowds of 2000 people every Friday and Saturday for over ten years. A lot of the public haven’t heard of the Fridge, but those who do remember it really appreciate what we were doing there. So perhaps that will be our next project.
Do you think these books will now be your last project concerning the Roxy ?
Andrew ; Well, there has been an idea floating around that the book could be used a the basis for a documentary and I think that’s quite possible. I’m sure the story could even be made into a film, but then I’d be concerned about what they might do to make it more palatable. As a documentary, it would be quite linear and factual but if it was made into a film, it would be subject to how the film-makers interpret everything.
Susan ; That would be my biggest fear. I mean, who would play our parts ???
Andrew ; It’s not something we’d go back just to look at, but about three years ago we went back there for a sort of exhibition…
Susan ; It was put on by Jane Palm-Gold. She had paintings of all these places like the Roxy and Hyper Hyper in Kensington, which no longer exist. She came to interview us and had a very refreshing view towards it.
Andrew ; And more recently, the Seven Dials Trust got in touch with us to say they were going to place a Blue Plaque on the original site of the Roxy. That was almost funny at first, because originally, the various London Councils were all trying to get Punk gigs banned. But at the same time, it’s nice to know that it’s eventually been recognized. The thing is, I think all of the old venues should be properly commemorated, or none of them. You can’t really pick and choose. Personally, I do like the idea that you can walk around London and perhaps you’ll look up, see a plaque and realise what happened on that spot. It’s just a little something that will help you pin down an event or a person that you’ve maybe read or heard about.
Susan ; I think it is good and it’s nice that they do these things. The only sad thing with the places they commemorate is that they usually aren’t open and you can’t go in to really see it.
Andrew ; The funny thing is that when we were running the Fridge, it became so popular that Lambeth Council actually put up signs directing people to it. Now it’s gone, there’s nothing there !
Susan ; But a lot of people still remember it very fondly, especially on the Gay scene. We ran Daisy Chain there, which eventually became Ciao Baby, and on Saturday nights we’d regularly have 2000 people attending.
Andrew ; We haven’t written a book about the Fridge, yet, so it hasn’t really been given the credit it deserves. People tend to think of Ministry of Sound as the main club venue, but they were just better known because they were more of a corporate brand. They knew that and they built on it. But we were just as successful and would have crowds of 2000 people every Friday and Saturday for over ten years. A lot of the public haven’t heard of the Fridge, but those who do remember it really appreciate what we were doing there. So perhaps that will be our next project.
Do you think these books will now be your last project concerning the Roxy ?
Andrew ; Well, there has been an idea floating around that the book could be used a the basis for a documentary and I think that’s quite possible. I’m sure the story could even be made into a film, but then I’d be concerned about what they might do to make it more palatable. As a documentary, it would be quite linear and factual but if it was made into a film, it would be subject to how the film-makers interpret everything.
Susan ; That would be my biggest fear. I mean, who would play our parts ???
The books, ‘100 Nights At The Roxy’ and ‘The Roxy, London 1976-77’ are both available now, via Carrczez Publishing. Printed in large format, they really are essential items, interesting informative and entertaining, just like the music itself.
www.roxyclub.co.uk
www.carrczezpublishing.uk
www.roxyclub.co.uk
www.carrczezpublishing.uk