Although held in great esteem by fans of the ‘post-punk’ era, the Au Pairs have never received the full credit that they so obviously deserve. But that said, their albums have been reissued on a pretty regular basis over the past forty years, ensuring that interest in the band has continued. Their musical style was all their own, mixing punk, funk and jazz to create something that was both catchy and confrontational, whilst Lesley Woods’ lyrics tackled subjects that few other bands had even considered at that time, from gender-issues through to the treatment of prisoners in Northern Ireland. The closest comparison would probably be the Gang of Four, but they were still very distinct. It’s that uniqueness that has kept their songs fresh, relevant and still inspiring new generations of fans around the world.
The original band formed in Birmingham during 1978, featuring Lesley Woods on guitar and vocals, Jane Munro on bass, Paul Foad on guitar and Pete Hammond on drums. Their debut EP, ‘You’, was released on their own label, ‘021’, in 1979 and instantly attracted a lot of attention, particularly from John Peel, who invited them to record sessions for his radio show, and the Gang of Four, who offered them support slots on their upcoming tours. Their first album, ‘Playing With a Different Sex’, was released by Human Records in 1981 and met with a positive response both from fans and critics. This was undoubtedly helped by the bands’ constant touring, including successful trips to America and Europe, but it was also this consistent activity which led to difficulties when they suddenly found themselves booked into a studio to record their second album, ‘Sense and Sensuality’. The band members were exhausted and hadn’t had enough spare time to work on new material, meaning that many of the songs had to be written in the studio without being honed in a live environment. Consequently, both the band and fans were disappointed with the results (although it has to be said that over the years the album has been reappraised by many listeners and is now regarded with much more respect.) Additionally, problems were developing within the band and, although they did have an option to record a third album, they split-up in 1983.
The original band formed in Birmingham during 1978, featuring Lesley Woods on guitar and vocals, Jane Munro on bass, Paul Foad on guitar and Pete Hammond on drums. Their debut EP, ‘You’, was released on their own label, ‘021’, in 1979 and instantly attracted a lot of attention, particularly from John Peel, who invited them to record sessions for his radio show, and the Gang of Four, who offered them support slots on their upcoming tours. Their first album, ‘Playing With a Different Sex’, was released by Human Records in 1981 and met with a positive response both from fans and critics. This was undoubtedly helped by the bands’ constant touring, including successful trips to America and Europe, but it was also this consistent activity which led to difficulties when they suddenly found themselves booked into a studio to record their second album, ‘Sense and Sensuality’. The band members were exhausted and hadn’t had enough spare time to work on new material, meaning that many of the songs had to be written in the studio without being honed in a live environment. Consequently, both the band and fans were disappointed with the results (although it has to be said that over the years the album has been reappraised by many listeners and is now regarded with much more respect.) Additionally, problems were developing within the band and, although they did have an option to record a third album, they split-up in 1983.
Sadly, there was some degree of acrimony between the former-members and none of them continued playing music with any similar level of success. In fact, Lesley chose to return to college and studied for a Law Degree, eventually becoming a Barrister and specialising in Asylum and Immigration cases. But in recent years she has started playing live again as a solo artist, performing both old and new material. She has also released an EP of new songs, ‘In the Fade’, which is available via bandcamp. After a few unsuccessful attempts, I arranged to meet with Lesley at a nice but rather busy café in Hackney and, after ordering our coffees, we soon started our conversation…
PLEASE NOTE – a few weeks after this interview went online I was contacted by the former band members Jane, Paul and Pete, objecting to certain comments made by Lesley. As it was never my intention to upset any of the band members, I have now deleted these sections as requested.
You first got involved in music when you went to University in Birmingham…
‘Yes, I was living in digs in Birmingham, but I dropped-out from University after not too long… I met Paul at a bus-stop one day and he was already in a band with Pete which was fashioned after the New York Dolls. Paul and I started a relationship and we also decided to start our own band. We needed a bass-player and specifically wanted to get another girl in the band. It turned out that Jane was the only female bass player we could find in Birmingham, back then, which just goes to show how much times have changed! She was still learning how to play, so we invited her to come over and jam with us. I already had a few songs like ‘You’, ‘Monogamy’ and ‘Kerb Crawler’, so we just started by jamming together at first, but things moved quickly and we played our first gig six weeks later! And if my memory serves me well, it seems like we didn’t really stop gigging until we split-up.’
It was still quite rare to see women fronting a band, writing the songs and playing guitar during the late Seventies. Were there any particular musicians that inspired you to do those things?
‘Well, there weren’t very many role models. Very, very few, especially if you were playing guitar. Maybe Suzi Quatro? I’d been playing guitar since I was about 14, but I’d started with classical guitar to begin with. When I started to learn chords I would sing folk songs and as I got a bit better I started to write my own songs and even played at a school concert. Then I switched over to playing an electric guitar and that was when I started to develop a sound of my own. As I was also trying to sing at the same time as playing, that kind of limited me somewhat in terms of what I could play, which is why I’ve never played any twiddly bits or things where I would have to go down the fret-board too much, because when you’re singing it’s quite hard to do that and not hit a bum-note… Which is why I’ve always admired people who can do that. With us, I think the style we developed came out of rehearsals and realising what we could and couldn’t play.’
PLEASE NOTE – a few weeks after this interview went online I was contacted by the former band members Jane, Paul and Pete, objecting to certain comments made by Lesley. As it was never my intention to upset any of the band members, I have now deleted these sections as requested.
You first got involved in music when you went to University in Birmingham…
‘Yes, I was living in digs in Birmingham, but I dropped-out from University after not too long… I met Paul at a bus-stop one day and he was already in a band with Pete which was fashioned after the New York Dolls. Paul and I started a relationship and we also decided to start our own band. We needed a bass-player and specifically wanted to get another girl in the band. It turned out that Jane was the only female bass player we could find in Birmingham, back then, which just goes to show how much times have changed! She was still learning how to play, so we invited her to come over and jam with us. I already had a few songs like ‘You’, ‘Monogamy’ and ‘Kerb Crawler’, so we just started by jamming together at first, but things moved quickly and we played our first gig six weeks later! And if my memory serves me well, it seems like we didn’t really stop gigging until we split-up.’
It was still quite rare to see women fronting a band, writing the songs and playing guitar during the late Seventies. Were there any particular musicians that inspired you to do those things?
‘Well, there weren’t very many role models. Very, very few, especially if you were playing guitar. Maybe Suzi Quatro? I’d been playing guitar since I was about 14, but I’d started with classical guitar to begin with. When I started to learn chords I would sing folk songs and as I got a bit better I started to write my own songs and even played at a school concert. Then I switched over to playing an electric guitar and that was when I started to develop a sound of my own. As I was also trying to sing at the same time as playing, that kind of limited me somewhat in terms of what I could play, which is why I’ve never played any twiddly bits or things where I would have to go down the fret-board too much, because when you’re singing it’s quite hard to do that and not hit a bum-note… Which is why I’ve always admired people who can do that. With us, I think the style we developed came out of rehearsals and realising what we could and couldn’t play.’
Lyrically, you were also writing songs about subjects that very few, if any, other bands were addressing…
‘I guess at that time the lyrics were pretty different to anyone else, perhaps with the exception of Gang of Four. They tended to be pretty political which was quite unusual back then, whereas now it’s probably more unusual if an artist isn’t political in some way. I know a lot of artists aren’t, but a lot more are political now than there were 40 years ago. I think a lot of bands used to avoid politics in their songs because if you included it in an obvious way, it probably wouldn’t get played on TV or Radio and that could damage their chances of becoming popular. Even bands like Pink Floyd had to be more obliquely-political, but by the time us and the Gang of Four were playing, we were singing more directly about political issues or whatever you want to call them. For me, women’s issues were particularly important because the situation for women was very different at that time. There were no sex discrimination laws, or laws against the discrimination of gay people, as there are now.’
I think that one of the reasons why your lyrics worked well was because they seemed to come from a more personal angle rather than the sloganeering-style that so many of the early Punk bands had adopted. In a way, that made them more relatable for a lot of people and is also why they remain relevant even now…
‘I think the message in our songs still has a lot of force and would probably have even more force in third world countries or places where the governments are still very oppressive. It’s a very simple message but it covers so many things, like Age, Race, Disability, Gender, Sexuality… Those are things that people can relate to and we also had songs about personal politics, gender politics and relationships between men and women. I think the Au Pairs were very-much focused on that, which is why the band had two men and two women. We wanted to avoid the imbalance that you get in a band when everyone is the same gender, or if there’s only one woman in the band. I recently saw the documentary about Pauline Black of The Selector and she had some very interesting things to say about the problems she had with being the only girl in the band. It had the potential to cause real problems and she talks quite openly about it. But with us, especially when we were playing live, those issues didn’t really arise because we were a lot more evenly balanced. Also, we had a lot of people working around us who were aware of these things, so we didn’t really have any of the kind of problems that Pauline encountered…’
‘I guess at that time the lyrics were pretty different to anyone else, perhaps with the exception of Gang of Four. They tended to be pretty political which was quite unusual back then, whereas now it’s probably more unusual if an artist isn’t political in some way. I know a lot of artists aren’t, but a lot more are political now than there were 40 years ago. I think a lot of bands used to avoid politics in their songs because if you included it in an obvious way, it probably wouldn’t get played on TV or Radio and that could damage their chances of becoming popular. Even bands like Pink Floyd had to be more obliquely-political, but by the time us and the Gang of Four were playing, we were singing more directly about political issues or whatever you want to call them. For me, women’s issues were particularly important because the situation for women was very different at that time. There were no sex discrimination laws, or laws against the discrimination of gay people, as there are now.’
I think that one of the reasons why your lyrics worked well was because they seemed to come from a more personal angle rather than the sloganeering-style that so many of the early Punk bands had adopted. In a way, that made them more relatable for a lot of people and is also why they remain relevant even now…
‘I think the message in our songs still has a lot of force and would probably have even more force in third world countries or places where the governments are still very oppressive. It’s a very simple message but it covers so many things, like Age, Race, Disability, Gender, Sexuality… Those are things that people can relate to and we also had songs about personal politics, gender politics and relationships between men and women. I think the Au Pairs were very-much focused on that, which is why the band had two men and two women. We wanted to avoid the imbalance that you get in a band when everyone is the same gender, or if there’s only one woman in the band. I recently saw the documentary about Pauline Black of The Selector and she had some very interesting things to say about the problems she had with being the only girl in the band. It had the potential to cause real problems and she talks quite openly about it. But with us, especially when we were playing live, those issues didn’t really arise because we were a lot more evenly balanced. Also, we had a lot of people working around us who were aware of these things, so we didn’t really have any of the kind of problems that Pauline encountered…’
Once you started to play live, it seems that things came together pretty quickly for the band and there was a lot of interest in what you were doing…
‘Yes, especially as we did a lot of gigs, including quite a few for Rock Against Racism. That’s how we met the Gang of Four… they liked what we were doing and invited us to tour with them. They even took us on tour in America, which introduced us to a lot of young American audiences. And because of that, we were able to play an East Coast tour in our own right. A bit later on. I can’t remember all of it terribly well but I do remember that, although we weren’t playing in massive venues, the gigs were always well-attended, so we must have become quite well-known in America, in that kind of culture at least!’
Your first two singles were released on the ‘021’ label… was that your own label?
‘Yes, 021 was our own record label, which we created to release our first EP, featuring ‘You’, ‘Domestic Departure’ and ‘Kerb Crawler’. That did pretty well so we released a second single, ‘Diet’. But we were literally having to put the sleeves together ourselves, with the help of a few friends. Fortunately for us, John Peel loved those records, as did the NME. John played them a lot and asked us to record several sessions for his radio show, which were all released on CD a few years ago… I don’t know exactly how many but apparently it sold a lot of copies! John Peel helped so many bands to get themselves heard by people who might be interested and I was thinking about it just the other day. Bands just don’t have that kind of help on the radio, nowadays. There are a few DJ’s that still try to include new, upcoming bands, but they seem to be a lot more limited with what they can do these days…’
‘Yes, especially as we did a lot of gigs, including quite a few for Rock Against Racism. That’s how we met the Gang of Four… they liked what we were doing and invited us to tour with them. They even took us on tour in America, which introduced us to a lot of young American audiences. And because of that, we were able to play an East Coast tour in our own right. A bit later on. I can’t remember all of it terribly well but I do remember that, although we weren’t playing in massive venues, the gigs were always well-attended, so we must have become quite well-known in America, in that kind of culture at least!’
Your first two singles were released on the ‘021’ label… was that your own label?
‘Yes, 021 was our own record label, which we created to release our first EP, featuring ‘You’, ‘Domestic Departure’ and ‘Kerb Crawler’. That did pretty well so we released a second single, ‘Diet’. But we were literally having to put the sleeves together ourselves, with the help of a few friends. Fortunately for us, John Peel loved those records, as did the NME. John played them a lot and asked us to record several sessions for his radio show, which were all released on CD a few years ago… I don’t know exactly how many but apparently it sold a lot of copies! John Peel helped so many bands to get themselves heard by people who might be interested and I was thinking about it just the other day. Bands just don’t have that kind of help on the radio, nowadays. There are a few DJ’s that still try to include new, upcoming bands, but they seem to be a lot more limited with what they can do these days…’
Following the success of those first two records, the band signed-up with Human Records who would go on to release your first album, ‘Playing with a Different Sex’…
‘Funnily enough, the guys who were involved with that are still around and I occasionally get messages from them on Facebook or whatever. I think one of them lives in France now, while the other one, Steve Melhuish, still has his own label over here. But I have no real idea of what happened to Human Records because I had no involvement with the business side of things. They were just these two guys who approached us and said that they could get us air-play and offered us what must have been an attractive deal because we decided to go with them. But then, after they released our first album, they sold the label and I think that was when we lost a lot of money. They did what a lot of people do, which is well-known now although it wasn’t so much at that time… They declared themselves bankrupt and sold-out, in their case to a guy who ran the NEMS label and had previously managed Black Sabbath! I think we lost a lot of money that was due to us because of that and by the time we found out about all the behind-the-scenes skulduggery, it was far too late to do anything about it. There’s a time-bar for these things, a limitation of six years after which you can’t do anything about it. The documents and records only have to be kept for a certain period of time, so if you find out, like, twenty years later, you won’t be able to do anything about it. I think a lot of bands from that era got ripped-off one way or another, because that was the way that many businesses operated back then. It’s rock’n’roll, isn’t it? I remember watching a documentary about Brian Epstein, the man who managed the Beatles, and he was such a great manager. If only every manager could be like him, then maybe all this shit wouldn’t happen to so many people. He died very young, sadly, but he seemed to be such a lovely guy and a brilliant manager. He really cared about the band as well as being really astute. He had the perfect blend. We had a great manager in terms of, he was really good to us, but he wasn’t very business-orientated. That said, I think it was almost offensive to be business-orientated in those days… There was a lot of emphasis on saying things like, we don’t need money… While we were releasing our own records or working with small, independent labels, there was no money. It was the major labels who had all the money, so we were just part of a subculture. Not that we were opposed to major labels and wouldn’t have considered any offers they may have made, but they just didn’t seem interested in us. I think that some of the things we were singing about would have undoubtedly made them uncomfortable. I mean, Gang of Four signed to EMI, but still had problems getting airplay because of their lyrics.'
‘Funnily enough, the guys who were involved with that are still around and I occasionally get messages from them on Facebook or whatever. I think one of them lives in France now, while the other one, Steve Melhuish, still has his own label over here. But I have no real idea of what happened to Human Records because I had no involvement with the business side of things. They were just these two guys who approached us and said that they could get us air-play and offered us what must have been an attractive deal because we decided to go with them. But then, after they released our first album, they sold the label and I think that was when we lost a lot of money. They did what a lot of people do, which is well-known now although it wasn’t so much at that time… They declared themselves bankrupt and sold-out, in their case to a guy who ran the NEMS label and had previously managed Black Sabbath! I think we lost a lot of money that was due to us because of that and by the time we found out about all the behind-the-scenes skulduggery, it was far too late to do anything about it. There’s a time-bar for these things, a limitation of six years after which you can’t do anything about it. The documents and records only have to be kept for a certain period of time, so if you find out, like, twenty years later, you won’t be able to do anything about it. I think a lot of bands from that era got ripped-off one way or another, because that was the way that many businesses operated back then. It’s rock’n’roll, isn’t it? I remember watching a documentary about Brian Epstein, the man who managed the Beatles, and he was such a great manager. If only every manager could be like him, then maybe all this shit wouldn’t happen to so many people. He died very young, sadly, but he seemed to be such a lovely guy and a brilliant manager. He really cared about the band as well as being really astute. He had the perfect blend. We had a great manager in terms of, he was really good to us, but he wasn’t very business-orientated. That said, I think it was almost offensive to be business-orientated in those days… There was a lot of emphasis on saying things like, we don’t need money… While we were releasing our own records or working with small, independent labels, there was no money. It was the major labels who had all the money, so we were just part of a subculture. Not that we were opposed to major labels and wouldn’t have considered any offers they may have made, but they just didn’t seem interested in us. I think that some of the things we were singing about would have undoubtedly made them uncomfortable. I mean, Gang of Four signed to EMI, but still had problems getting airplay because of their lyrics.'
'But there were still some really great moments when something slipped-through, like Poly Styrene and X-Ray Spex getting on to ‘Top of the Pops’… something like that would never happen now. It’s also interesting that some relatively short-lived ‘alternative’ acts did manage to crossover into the mainstream during that period of time and even had hits. There were quite a few bands who were saying ‘up yours’ to mainstream culture but at the same time became really popular because their music was so strong and they were appreciated by their audiences. But it’s strange that so many of them only had short life-spans and didn’t go on to endure, like the Rolling Stones and other bands like that.’
I’ve read that you had problems with the recording of ‘Playing with a Different Sex’?
‘Oh yeah, the first studio we went in to just didn’t work-out. We weren’t happy there because the guy was basically trying to turn us into something that we weren’t… I think he would have preferred us to be Brotherhood of Man! So we wasted a lot of money there and eventually went to a different studio, which was very nice, and worked with a different guy who was really lovely. We were much happier recording there and I think that’s why the album came out so well.’
One of the more intriguing tracks on the album is your cover of the David Bowie song, ‘Repetition’. As it’s not one of his better-known tracks, I think a lot of people don’t realise it’s a cover, even now. But it’s a great song and it really fits-in well on your album…
‘Well, it was a song he wrote about wife-beating in America, so it really fitted-in with the sort of issues that we were concerned about. I know that a lot of bands, if they were going to cover a Bowie song, would’ve gone for something well-known, but I don’t think any of us would’ve wanted to do that as no-one could do those songs better than Bowie himself. In our case, the reason why we wanted to do ‘Repetition’ was more to do with the lyrics and what it was talking about. So I think we were able to appropriate it and make it our own… in fact, it’s one of the songs that I’ve been playing in my live set, recently, and I still think the lyrics are great. It always reminds me of a film called ‘A Woman Under the Influence’, where the main character is subject to domestic violence… oddly enough, it starred Peter Falk, who was best known as ‘Columbo’, but in this movie he’s pretty scary and violent, and eventually gets his wife certified for not being a good wife! I always thought it was a very powerful film. Funnily enough, I once went to a theatre in New York and ended-up sitting next to Peter Falk, but because of that film, I was too nervous to say anything!’
I’ve read that you had problems with the recording of ‘Playing with a Different Sex’?
‘Oh yeah, the first studio we went in to just didn’t work-out. We weren’t happy there because the guy was basically trying to turn us into something that we weren’t… I think he would have preferred us to be Brotherhood of Man! So we wasted a lot of money there and eventually went to a different studio, which was very nice, and worked with a different guy who was really lovely. We were much happier recording there and I think that’s why the album came out so well.’
One of the more intriguing tracks on the album is your cover of the David Bowie song, ‘Repetition’. As it’s not one of his better-known tracks, I think a lot of people don’t realise it’s a cover, even now. But it’s a great song and it really fits-in well on your album…
‘Well, it was a song he wrote about wife-beating in America, so it really fitted-in with the sort of issues that we were concerned about. I know that a lot of bands, if they were going to cover a Bowie song, would’ve gone for something well-known, but I don’t think any of us would’ve wanted to do that as no-one could do those songs better than Bowie himself. In our case, the reason why we wanted to do ‘Repetition’ was more to do with the lyrics and what it was talking about. So I think we were able to appropriate it and make it our own… in fact, it’s one of the songs that I’ve been playing in my live set, recently, and I still think the lyrics are great. It always reminds me of a film called ‘A Woman Under the Influence’, where the main character is subject to domestic violence… oddly enough, it starred Peter Falk, who was best known as ‘Columbo’, but in this movie he’s pretty scary and violent, and eventually gets his wife certified for not being a good wife! I always thought it was a very powerful film. Funnily enough, I once went to a theatre in New York and ended-up sitting next to Peter Falk, but because of that film, I was too nervous to say anything!’
As you were saying, the band were already playing on a pretty constant schedule and I can only imagine that things got even busier when the album was released. However, you returned to the studio within the year to record your second album, ‘Sense and Sensuality’. Did you have much time to write new material for another album?
‘We had problems with the second album… I don’t know what the others feel, but I think that by that point, my voice was shot due to all of the touring we had done and we hadn’t really had a chance to work-on any new material. That meant that most of the songs had to be written in the studio. Another problem was that no-one else was really writing the songs apart from me and I can’t say that I was particularly responsible about it. I used to get really off my head back then and the time that I spent doing that was probably the same time that I should have spent sitting down with a pen and notebook, writing songs. But unfortunately I became too involved with other things, as it was all so new and exciting for me. It became a problem for the band because I was the only person writing the songs and suddenly, we were supposed to be recording a new album. I was having to think, what should I write about ? Strangely, there had been occasions when people had come up to me at gigs, holding newspaper articles and saying, why don’t you write a song about this? I’d have to tell them, we’re not like that, we’re not political commentators… That became a bit irksome, you know, people thinking that because we wrote songs about certain politic issues we should write about every fucking political issue! That wasn’t what we were trying to do. I’ve always tried to write songs in a way that will take you away from yourself… But there were also problems in the band by that point and people were going through various personal issues… As a result I feel that the material on the second album was only half-written. I think the ideas are there, but they’re not fully worked-through lyrically, melodically or musically and I think that the album just wasn’t as good as it could have been. That said, it’s not as if a band isn’t allowed to do that… I’ve heard Van Morrison albums that are absolutely dire, but someone like that can get away with it because he’s already recorded a plethora of really great stuff and the odd piece of shit here and there doesn’t really matter. It doesn’t cloud anything for someone like him, but in our case, as it was still so early in our career, it proved to be our downfall and that’s when we started falling apart. We stopped really communicating with each other and Jane left the band (for personal reasons.)
(removed by request.)
‘We had problems with the second album… I don’t know what the others feel, but I think that by that point, my voice was shot due to all of the touring we had done and we hadn’t really had a chance to work-on any new material. That meant that most of the songs had to be written in the studio. Another problem was that no-one else was really writing the songs apart from me and I can’t say that I was particularly responsible about it. I used to get really off my head back then and the time that I spent doing that was probably the same time that I should have spent sitting down with a pen and notebook, writing songs. But unfortunately I became too involved with other things, as it was all so new and exciting for me. It became a problem for the band because I was the only person writing the songs and suddenly, we were supposed to be recording a new album. I was having to think, what should I write about ? Strangely, there had been occasions when people had come up to me at gigs, holding newspaper articles and saying, why don’t you write a song about this? I’d have to tell them, we’re not like that, we’re not political commentators… That became a bit irksome, you know, people thinking that because we wrote songs about certain politic issues we should write about every fucking political issue! That wasn’t what we were trying to do. I’ve always tried to write songs in a way that will take you away from yourself… But there were also problems in the band by that point and people were going through various personal issues… As a result I feel that the material on the second album was only half-written. I think the ideas are there, but they’re not fully worked-through lyrically, melodically or musically and I think that the album just wasn’t as good as it could have been. That said, it’s not as if a band isn’t allowed to do that… I’ve heard Van Morrison albums that are absolutely dire, but someone like that can get away with it because he’s already recorded a plethora of really great stuff and the odd piece of shit here and there doesn’t really matter. It doesn’t cloud anything for someone like him, but in our case, as it was still so early in our career, it proved to be our downfall and that’s when we started falling apart. We stopped really communicating with each other and Jane left the band (for personal reasons.)
(removed by request.)
I think a lot of bands end up in that same position when they find themselves trying to record their second album… There’s an adage that ‘you’ve had a life-time to write your first album and then six weeks to write the second…’
‘Yeah, I know. That said, even then, there was a chance that we could’ve stayed together. It was put to me by Patrick Meehan, a very rich man who had bought-out Human records, that we could go into the studio to record another album with Steve Lillywhite, who was starting to get very successful around that time. I think we would have still needed to take a break before we did it, just to re-charge and give my voice a rest. (removed by request.)
Was that when you decided to leave Birmingham and move down to London?
‘Yeah, we were all still in Birmingham up until then. I don’t remember the idea of moving to London as an option and I don’t think we could have done it because we didn’t have the money to do it. We were paying ourselves a meagre wage, but in the end the money ran-out, which was probably down to the skulduggery going on behind the scenes. I think that happens to a lot of bands when they get to a certain level. Even successful bands like the Rolling Stones or Fleetwood Mac end up being trapped by money issues. In their cases it’s because they’ve become used to a certain level of fame and success, but if their royalties start to drop-off the only thing they can do to keep their lifestyle going is to go out on tour, even though they might not want to do that anymore. The only other way to go is the Michael Jackson route and ironically, he’s probably worth a lot more since he died than he was when he was alive. The one person in that kind of position that I do feel for is Kurt Cobain. I watched a documentary about him and he had been this very lonely little boy who used to go and sit in a hospital waiting room, just to keep warm. I don’t think he ever stopped being that lonely little boy and all of a sudden, fame just made it worse. Fame is no antidote to the need for meaningful love and hugs.’
‘Yeah, I know. That said, even then, there was a chance that we could’ve stayed together. It was put to me by Patrick Meehan, a very rich man who had bought-out Human records, that we could go into the studio to record another album with Steve Lillywhite, who was starting to get very successful around that time. I think we would have still needed to take a break before we did it, just to re-charge and give my voice a rest. (removed by request.)
Was that when you decided to leave Birmingham and move down to London?
‘Yeah, we were all still in Birmingham up until then. I don’t remember the idea of moving to London as an option and I don’t think we could have done it because we didn’t have the money to do it. We were paying ourselves a meagre wage, but in the end the money ran-out, which was probably down to the skulduggery going on behind the scenes. I think that happens to a lot of bands when they get to a certain level. Even successful bands like the Rolling Stones or Fleetwood Mac end up being trapped by money issues. In their cases it’s because they’ve become used to a certain level of fame and success, but if their royalties start to drop-off the only thing they can do to keep their lifestyle going is to go out on tour, even though they might not want to do that anymore. The only other way to go is the Michael Jackson route and ironically, he’s probably worth a lot more since he died than he was when he was alive. The one person in that kind of position that I do feel for is Kurt Cobain. I watched a documentary about him and he had been this very lonely little boy who used to go and sit in a hospital waiting room, just to keep warm. I don’t think he ever stopped being that lonely little boy and all of a sudden, fame just made it worse. Fame is no antidote to the need for meaningful love and hugs.’
Shortly after the Au Pairs came to an end, the ‘Live in Berlin’ album was released. Apparently, there was some controversy over this as it’s been claimed that you accepted a payment for the recording to be released while the rest of the band had not known about it… As such, the rest of the band issued a statement stating
"The release of the album 'Live In Berlin' was not authorised by the Au Pairs."
‘That was rubbish, absolute bullshit… Any record contract or publishing contract would have to be signed by all four band members. In our case, Jane had left the band (removed by request) and the band was disintegrating. (removed by request) Everything back in Birmingham was a mess and I decided that I didn’t want to stay there, but I had no money, nowhere to live and no-one I could turn to. Everyone wants to be your friend when the band is doing well but as soon as the band starts flailing, they don’t want to know you. Even my ex-girlfriend had turned out to be pretty violent and I had been on the receiving end of it, so I couldn’t turn to her. Eventually, I decided to leave Birmingham in 1983 with the intention of getting some money from Patrick Meehan. I found out where he lived and went round to see him. I told him that I needed some money, so he offered to pay me £5000 if I signed a contract to release the live album. As far as I was concerned, the contract wasn’t worth the paper it was written on because without the other band members’ signatures it had no legal efficacy. It needed all four band members’ signatures to be effective. I know the others have said that I shouldn’t have done that and maybe I shouldn’t have, but I really needed some money. The others could have still done something about it… they could have gone, under their own initiative, and done what I did. It’s all very well blaming me for what happened and maintaining that I screwed them over, but I had no legal authority to screw them over. They could and should have done something about it. The release of the live album could have been prevented by one phone call to Meehan but no-one did anything about it and, as far as I know, no-one approached him for any further money. I know what I would have done had I been in that position. Oddly enough, I was contacted by someone in Berlin a couple of years ago and he said that he had the original tapes of that concert and wanted to do something with them. I think he said he also had the recordings of The Slits and the Mo-dettes from the same event… Anyway, I told him that he couldn’t release the recording because all of our original releases go through BMG for licensing. He then tried to say that these were different tapes to the one used on ‘Live in Berlin’, but wouldn’t say how he knew that or where he had got them. So we all told him to stop trying to release them. He offered us a percentage of the sales but when I spoke to someone at BMG, they told me that it was a pretty shit deal, so we told him we’re just not interested.’
"The release of the album 'Live In Berlin' was not authorised by the Au Pairs."
‘That was rubbish, absolute bullshit… Any record contract or publishing contract would have to be signed by all four band members. In our case, Jane had left the band (removed by request) and the band was disintegrating. (removed by request) Everything back in Birmingham was a mess and I decided that I didn’t want to stay there, but I had no money, nowhere to live and no-one I could turn to. Everyone wants to be your friend when the band is doing well but as soon as the band starts flailing, they don’t want to know you. Even my ex-girlfriend had turned out to be pretty violent and I had been on the receiving end of it, so I couldn’t turn to her. Eventually, I decided to leave Birmingham in 1983 with the intention of getting some money from Patrick Meehan. I found out where he lived and went round to see him. I told him that I needed some money, so he offered to pay me £5000 if I signed a contract to release the live album. As far as I was concerned, the contract wasn’t worth the paper it was written on because without the other band members’ signatures it had no legal efficacy. It needed all four band members’ signatures to be effective. I know the others have said that I shouldn’t have done that and maybe I shouldn’t have, but I really needed some money. The others could have still done something about it… they could have gone, under their own initiative, and done what I did. It’s all very well blaming me for what happened and maintaining that I screwed them over, but I had no legal authority to screw them over. They could and should have done something about it. The release of the live album could have been prevented by one phone call to Meehan but no-one did anything about it and, as far as I know, no-one approached him for any further money. I know what I would have done had I been in that position. Oddly enough, I was contacted by someone in Berlin a couple of years ago and he said that he had the original tapes of that concert and wanted to do something with them. I think he said he also had the recordings of The Slits and the Mo-dettes from the same event… Anyway, I told him that he couldn’t release the recording because all of our original releases go through BMG for licensing. He then tried to say that these were different tapes to the one used on ‘Live in Berlin’, but wouldn’t say how he knew that or where he had got them. So we all told him to stop trying to release them. He offered us a percentage of the sales but when I spoke to someone at BMG, they told me that it was a pretty shit deal, so we told him we’re just not interested.’
When you moved to London, you formed a band called The Darlings, although they only lasted for a very short time…
‘I decided to move because there really wasn’t anything left for me in Birmingham. I tried to put another band together but unfortunately it was very short-lived. It was one of those things, I tried to do something but it just wasn’t happening and it didn’t take off. I think we only played once, at a Gay Pride event, but I seem to recall that people were really horrible towards us and I decided that if it was going to be like that, I didn’t want to bother with it.’
And so instead, you decided to return to college and study for a Law degree…
‘Actually, I had already started studying Law by then. I wanted to do something to get my brain back! My mind was pretty scrambled by then, but I managed to pass the exams. That was a pretty big surprise as I thought I hadn’t done very well and I was over in Paris, making some music with a guy called Theo Hakola, who had a band called Passion Fodder. He’s a really nice guy and I’m still in touch with him… in fact, I actually did some backing vocals on his most recent recordings. Anyway, my Mum phoned to tell me that I’d passed the exams and I thought, ‘Oh No!’ because it meant that I had to go back and start doing my Bar finals. That was very hard because The Bar at that time was very sexist, very racist and very homophobic. Women couldn’t even wear trousers in Court! It really was disgusting, although now they’ve got equal opportunities coming out of their ears and they’re very right-on about all of that. But back then, they were really old-fashioned and going into an environment like that from the environment that I had been in with the Au Pairs was a real culture shock. Everyone was kow-towing and following the line, so it was very different for me. But I found my niche working on Immigration, Asylum and Refugee cases, which was absolutely great. I learnt a lot about countries that I hadn’t known about and I did a lot of Asylum work at a time when you got public funding for it. That’s not the case now, you can’t get public-funding for anything… But I still do Immigration work. I don’t do as much as I did, but it keeps the wolves from the door… The work can be quite a mixed-bag, but I’ve been doing it for a long time so I guess am a bit of an expert by now.’
‘I decided to move because there really wasn’t anything left for me in Birmingham. I tried to put another band together but unfortunately it was very short-lived. It was one of those things, I tried to do something but it just wasn’t happening and it didn’t take off. I think we only played once, at a Gay Pride event, but I seem to recall that people were really horrible towards us and I decided that if it was going to be like that, I didn’t want to bother with it.’
And so instead, you decided to return to college and study for a Law degree…
‘Actually, I had already started studying Law by then. I wanted to do something to get my brain back! My mind was pretty scrambled by then, but I managed to pass the exams. That was a pretty big surprise as I thought I hadn’t done very well and I was over in Paris, making some music with a guy called Theo Hakola, who had a band called Passion Fodder. He’s a really nice guy and I’m still in touch with him… in fact, I actually did some backing vocals on his most recent recordings. Anyway, my Mum phoned to tell me that I’d passed the exams and I thought, ‘Oh No!’ because it meant that I had to go back and start doing my Bar finals. That was very hard because The Bar at that time was very sexist, very racist and very homophobic. Women couldn’t even wear trousers in Court! It really was disgusting, although now they’ve got equal opportunities coming out of their ears and they’re very right-on about all of that. But back then, they were really old-fashioned and going into an environment like that from the environment that I had been in with the Au Pairs was a real culture shock. Everyone was kow-towing and following the line, so it was very different for me. But I found my niche working on Immigration, Asylum and Refugee cases, which was absolutely great. I learnt a lot about countries that I hadn’t known about and I did a lot of Asylum work at a time when you got public funding for it. That’s not the case now, you can’t get public-funding for anything… But I still do Immigration work. I don’t do as much as I did, but it keeps the wolves from the door… The work can be quite a mixed-bag, but I’ve been doing it for a long time so I guess am a bit of an expert by now.’
Do you think your decision to work with Immigration and Asylum cases was influenced by the same sort of ideas and subjects you used to write about in the Au Pairs?
‘I think so. That’s what I meant when I said that I found my niche. Immigration has always been a political hotcake, and it was either that or criminal defence, which could be a bit grimy… imagine having to sit in a cell with a rapist who you might have to defend! But I think I’m in a position now where I can say, I’ve done that, I’ve mastered that side of things, so I want to go back and play some music again. Even if it’s just recording stuff that I write, that’ll be great, although I do want to play some gigs and perhaps play at a few festivals. Having recorded the tracks for the EP, I’ve proved to myself that I can still do it. I wasn’t actually sure if I would be able to do that, so it was like going back to the beginning. I had started writing the songs on the EP a few years ago, so they were something I had that I needed to finish. Luckily, I found a sound-person who was happy to help me bring them to their conclusion… Now that I’m feeling more confident, I’ve booked some time in a rehearsal studio, just with my backing tracks, to find out what my voice sounds like and what my guitar playing is like. I’m my own harshest critic, but if it all sounds good and I feel okay with it, I think I may look-into collaborating with other musicians. I have a couple of people lined-up, though I can’t say who they are just yet… I don’t want to jinx it by saying anything too soon! But I’m really excited to see where this goes…’
You were going to play some dates back in 2018, as one of the artists on a tour that featured Lene Lovich, yourself and Barbara Gogan. Unfortunately the tour didn’t go ahead but you did end up playing with Lene Lovich in London the following year…
‘I think the tour in 2018 was cancelled because the ticket sales hadn’t been very good in some places, but I had been looking forward to it. Barbara Gogan, who was the singer of The Passions and another old friend, was also going to be playing so it would have been interesting. But more recently, I was contacted by a booking agent who asked if I’d be interested in playing on an eleven date tour with The Chameleons. I said ‘yeah!’ straight away and all I had to do to get ready was some extra work on my backing tracks. It was interesting for me because a lot of the time, I was playing in front of people who had never even heard of the Au Pairs. But that was good because I got feedback from a different set of people. Since then, the Gang of Four have announced their final tour and Jon King has asked me if I’ll join them onstage at their last gig, which obviously I would love to do and hope it happens, although I think it will all depend on their schedule…’
‘I think so. That’s what I meant when I said that I found my niche. Immigration has always been a political hotcake, and it was either that or criminal defence, which could be a bit grimy… imagine having to sit in a cell with a rapist who you might have to defend! But I think I’m in a position now where I can say, I’ve done that, I’ve mastered that side of things, so I want to go back and play some music again. Even if it’s just recording stuff that I write, that’ll be great, although I do want to play some gigs and perhaps play at a few festivals. Having recorded the tracks for the EP, I’ve proved to myself that I can still do it. I wasn’t actually sure if I would be able to do that, so it was like going back to the beginning. I had started writing the songs on the EP a few years ago, so they were something I had that I needed to finish. Luckily, I found a sound-person who was happy to help me bring them to their conclusion… Now that I’m feeling more confident, I’ve booked some time in a rehearsal studio, just with my backing tracks, to find out what my voice sounds like and what my guitar playing is like. I’m my own harshest critic, but if it all sounds good and I feel okay with it, I think I may look-into collaborating with other musicians. I have a couple of people lined-up, though I can’t say who they are just yet… I don’t want to jinx it by saying anything too soon! But I’m really excited to see where this goes…’
You were going to play some dates back in 2018, as one of the artists on a tour that featured Lene Lovich, yourself and Barbara Gogan. Unfortunately the tour didn’t go ahead but you did end up playing with Lene Lovich in London the following year…
‘I think the tour in 2018 was cancelled because the ticket sales hadn’t been very good in some places, but I had been looking forward to it. Barbara Gogan, who was the singer of The Passions and another old friend, was also going to be playing so it would have been interesting. But more recently, I was contacted by a booking agent who asked if I’d be interested in playing on an eleven date tour with The Chameleons. I said ‘yeah!’ straight away and all I had to do to get ready was some extra work on my backing tracks. It was interesting for me because a lot of the time, I was playing in front of people who had never even heard of the Au Pairs. But that was good because I got feedback from a different set of people. Since then, the Gang of Four have announced their final tour and Jon King has asked me if I’ll join them onstage at their last gig, which obviously I would love to do and hope it happens, although I think it will all depend on their schedule…’
As you’ve already mentioned, you recently made a digital EP available on bandcamp, featuring four new tracks. Obviously, recording and studios have changed a great deal since you were recording with the Au Pairs, so what was it like putting these new tracks together?
‘Well, the bass on three of the songs was recorded live, because I didn’t really know how to use Ableton (a digital music programme) very well at that point. The guy who was helping me would play the songs from start to finish several times and then we’d just pick the one with the least mistakes! The guitar was played live, but it was all recorded digitally on an audio workstation. It was a different way to do things but I’m happy with the way it turned out. At the moment, the tracks are only available online but I think I will try to get them released on CD if I start to play live more regularly. It’s all early days yet. I’m also starting to write new material, possibly for an album, and trying to book more gigs… I just want to try and get things moving. I’ve been invited to go on Resonance radio on International Women’s Day and someone else who runs a podcast wants to set-up an interview. Some guy in Amsterdam has offered me a gig over there, although realistically I wouldn’t want to go all that way for just one little gig. I think there would need to be at least another two or three to make it worthwhile… I’m trying to get more gigs, trying to collaborate with different people and trying to get support for what I’m doing, but it’s certainly quite different now.’
You played one of the tracks from the EP, ‘Let It Go’, when you supported Lene Lovich in 2019. Are the other tracks more recent than that?
‘Well, they’re all new songs in as much as they haven’t been recorded before, but they were originally written quite some time ago. This is what I meant when I was saying that I wanted to bring them to fruition by recording them and putting them out there. Now that’s done I can move on and see what I can do next. I’ve always listened to a lot of different things and every genre has something great to hear, but I think I’ve really got to find my own style all over again. I’ve never been the kind of singer who thinks that I have to try to be like someone else. I have to admit that, for a long time, maybe seven or eight years when I first started practising Law, I kind of switched myself off from a lot of things because I really had to focus on what I was doing. So I feel that a lot of things passed me by in a lot of ways, although I did stay aware of some things that were happening because friends would buy me albums as birthday presents or recommend things to me. I’d also go out dancing in Clubs throughout the Nineties, although club music is a bit different to what I had been involved with. But I’d like to think that I had at least some idea of the different things that were going on.’
‘Well, the bass on three of the songs was recorded live, because I didn’t really know how to use Ableton (a digital music programme) very well at that point. The guy who was helping me would play the songs from start to finish several times and then we’d just pick the one with the least mistakes! The guitar was played live, but it was all recorded digitally on an audio workstation. It was a different way to do things but I’m happy with the way it turned out. At the moment, the tracks are only available online but I think I will try to get them released on CD if I start to play live more regularly. It’s all early days yet. I’m also starting to write new material, possibly for an album, and trying to book more gigs… I just want to try and get things moving. I’ve been invited to go on Resonance radio on International Women’s Day and someone else who runs a podcast wants to set-up an interview. Some guy in Amsterdam has offered me a gig over there, although realistically I wouldn’t want to go all that way for just one little gig. I think there would need to be at least another two or three to make it worthwhile… I’m trying to get more gigs, trying to collaborate with different people and trying to get support for what I’m doing, but it’s certainly quite different now.’
You played one of the tracks from the EP, ‘Let It Go’, when you supported Lene Lovich in 2019. Are the other tracks more recent than that?
‘Well, they’re all new songs in as much as they haven’t been recorded before, but they were originally written quite some time ago. This is what I meant when I was saying that I wanted to bring them to fruition by recording them and putting them out there. Now that’s done I can move on and see what I can do next. I’ve always listened to a lot of different things and every genre has something great to hear, but I think I’ve really got to find my own style all over again. I’ve never been the kind of singer who thinks that I have to try to be like someone else. I have to admit that, for a long time, maybe seven or eight years when I first started practising Law, I kind of switched myself off from a lot of things because I really had to focus on what I was doing. So I feel that a lot of things passed me by in a lot of ways, although I did stay aware of some things that were happening because friends would buy me albums as birthday presents or recommend things to me. I’d also go out dancing in Clubs throughout the Nineties, although club music is a bit different to what I had been involved with. But I’d like to think that I had at least some idea of the different things that were going on.’
Are you in touch with your former band mates at all these days, or are things still difficult?
‘Yes, we try to keep in touch… Paul is fine, (removed by request.) he’s now a successful jazz musician and music lecturer, still in Birmingham. Jane is fine (removed by request) but she gave up music and works as an alternative therapist. Pete seems to be a very successful washboard player (!) and still plays drums with different bands. Fortunately, he still retains his wicked sense of humour! Martin (removed by request) married a really nice woman and moved to Spain where they had a lovely daughter, but tragically he died in a car crash maybe 10 or 15 years ago.’
We ended the interview at this point, but over the next few months Lesley started to get busier, including gigs supporting the likes of Gavin Friday and Jerry Harrison. She will also be playing at the Loud Women 10th Anniversary gig, taking place at Rich Mix in London on 6th September 2025. But the big news is that she has decided to put together a new line-up of the Au Pairs, featuring Estella Adeyeri from Big Joanie, along with Jem Doulton and Alex Ward from the Thurston More group. If everything goes according to plan, we should be seeing them playing live early in 2026. Although it’s a shame that it won’t be the original line-up, Lesley seems to have chosen appropriate replacements who will be more than capable of living-up to the bands’ legacy. I can only say that it’s something that we should all be looking forward to seeing.
‘Yes, we try to keep in touch… Paul is fine, (removed by request.) he’s now a successful jazz musician and music lecturer, still in Birmingham. Jane is fine (removed by request) but she gave up music and works as an alternative therapist. Pete seems to be a very successful washboard player (!) and still plays drums with different bands. Fortunately, he still retains his wicked sense of humour! Martin (removed by request) married a really nice woman and moved to Spain where they had a lovely daughter, but tragically he died in a car crash maybe 10 or 15 years ago.’
We ended the interview at this point, but over the next few months Lesley started to get busier, including gigs supporting the likes of Gavin Friday and Jerry Harrison. She will also be playing at the Loud Women 10th Anniversary gig, taking place at Rich Mix in London on 6th September 2025. But the big news is that she has decided to put together a new line-up of the Au Pairs, featuring Estella Adeyeri from Big Joanie, along with Jem Doulton and Alex Ward from the Thurston More group. If everything goes according to plan, we should be seeing them playing live early in 2026. Although it’s a shame that it won’t be the original line-up, Lesley seems to have chosen appropriate replacements who will be more than capable of living-up to the bands’ legacy. I can only say that it’s something that we should all be looking forward to seeing.
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