Okay, I have to admit that I’m being a bit self-indulgent here. Outside of North America, Pop-O-Pies are a pretty obscure entity (although those who have heard them tend to love the records) but that’s perhaps the main reason why I like to feature bands like this. I’m sure that more people would enjoy the band if they got the chance to hear them, so I’m trying to prompt some inquisitiveness. Nowadays with the internet, it’s a lot easier to hear bands that you may otherwise never know about. I’m just trying to nudge you in the right direction…
It was Bill Gould of Faith No More who first told me about them, sometime in the late Eighties. They had all been friends for some time, with Bill, Roddy Bottum and Mike Bordin acting as the Pop-O-Pies band during the time of his ‘Second Record’ and Joe, in turn, handling vocals for Faith No More during their early gigs, before they found a permanent singer. It took me several years to track down the records (which, strangely enough, I achieved in reverse order, starting with ‘Joe’s Third Record’, followed by the ‘Second Record’, then the ‘White EP’ and finally the ‘Truckin’ 7”) but it was well-worth the effort. It’s all great stuff and, while it’s rather tricky to categorise the style, there are some really great songs and great sounds to be heard and enjoyed, all underpinned by a twisted sense of humour. Think of Flipper reconstructing the Sixties whilst laying the path for early Mudhoney and Nirvana…
Since the ‘80’s there have only been occasional sightings of the Pop-O-Pies, including the ‘In Frisco’ 7” in 1993 and the very-limited, self-released ‘Anthology’ CD in 2003, but it wasn’t until last year that I discovered that the Liberation Hall label had released a ‘deluxe’ version of the ‘White EP’ on CD back in 2020. I managed to track-down a copy through my contact with the label (cheers, Randy!) who also offered to set-up an interview with the redoubtable Joe Pop-O-Pies himself. It had to be done via email (not my favourite interview-format) but Joe was good enough to provide answers to my enquiries and I think it serves as a good introduction to his music. I’ll also add a few links to Youtube so you can hear some music alongside the read…
It was Bill Gould of Faith No More who first told me about them, sometime in the late Eighties. They had all been friends for some time, with Bill, Roddy Bottum and Mike Bordin acting as the Pop-O-Pies band during the time of his ‘Second Record’ and Joe, in turn, handling vocals for Faith No More during their early gigs, before they found a permanent singer. It took me several years to track down the records (which, strangely enough, I achieved in reverse order, starting with ‘Joe’s Third Record’, followed by the ‘Second Record’, then the ‘White EP’ and finally the ‘Truckin’ 7”) but it was well-worth the effort. It’s all great stuff and, while it’s rather tricky to categorise the style, there are some really great songs and great sounds to be heard and enjoyed, all underpinned by a twisted sense of humour. Think of Flipper reconstructing the Sixties whilst laying the path for early Mudhoney and Nirvana…
Since the ‘80’s there have only been occasional sightings of the Pop-O-Pies, including the ‘In Frisco’ 7” in 1993 and the very-limited, self-released ‘Anthology’ CD in 2003, but it wasn’t until last year that I discovered that the Liberation Hall label had released a ‘deluxe’ version of the ‘White EP’ on CD back in 2020. I managed to track-down a copy through my contact with the label (cheers, Randy!) who also offered to set-up an interview with the redoubtable Joe Pop-O-Pies himself. It had to be done via email (not my favourite interview-format) but Joe was good enough to provide answers to my enquiries and I think it serves as a good introduction to his music. I’ll also add a few links to Youtube so you can hear some music alongside the read…
So, straight in to the conversation… where did Joe grow up and how did he first become interested in music?
‘I was born in New York City, April 1959, and grew up in the suburbs of NYC until I was 13. Then we moved to New Jersey and I lived there until I moved to San Francisco in 1981.I’d always loved music as far back as my first memories. I had an older brother who was really into Buddy Holly and one of the first things I can remember was from 1962, singing along with his Buddy Holly records.’
When did you first start playing in a band and what kind of music was it?
‘I didn't start playing music until 1973, when I was 14, and I joined my first band in 1975. At that time I was playing drums and we just played covers, things like Led Zeppelin, David Bowie, BTO, Rolling Stones, etc. I didn't start playing punk rock songs (all originals) until early 1979.’
What was it that attracted you to ‘punk’?
‘I liked the energy, the sense of humour and the brutal honesty of it all.’
Later on, when you recorded a cover of ‘I Am the Walrus’, you added a line about seeing the Sex Pistols in ’78. Is that true?
‘No, although the Pistols' last show did happen to be in San Francisco in 1978. I was just writing that line from the perspective of someone who might have been there...’
So, when did Pop-o-Pies actually start and what kind of sound were you aiming for?
‘Officially, the Pop-O-Pies played their first show on Sept 26, 1981 in Berkeley, CA, opening up for The Waitresses. I wanted to go for a few different kinds of sounds because I loved power pop and punk, like the Buzzcocks and Rezillos, but I also liked slower, dirgy, messy types of songs. And, as a kind of last minute after-thought, I also liked rap. I had the idea to do a rap version of ‘Truckin' about a month before we recorded ‘The White EP’. That was in 1982 so I may well have been one of the first White guys to do a rap song… and probably one of the first to put punk and rap on the same record.’
‘I was born in New York City, April 1959, and grew up in the suburbs of NYC until I was 13. Then we moved to New Jersey and I lived there until I moved to San Francisco in 1981.I’d always loved music as far back as my first memories. I had an older brother who was really into Buddy Holly and one of the first things I can remember was from 1962, singing along with his Buddy Holly records.’
When did you first start playing in a band and what kind of music was it?
‘I didn't start playing music until 1973, when I was 14, and I joined my first band in 1975. At that time I was playing drums and we just played covers, things like Led Zeppelin, David Bowie, BTO, Rolling Stones, etc. I didn't start playing punk rock songs (all originals) until early 1979.’
What was it that attracted you to ‘punk’?
‘I liked the energy, the sense of humour and the brutal honesty of it all.’
Later on, when you recorded a cover of ‘I Am the Walrus’, you added a line about seeing the Sex Pistols in ’78. Is that true?
‘No, although the Pistols' last show did happen to be in San Francisco in 1978. I was just writing that line from the perspective of someone who might have been there...’
So, when did Pop-o-Pies actually start and what kind of sound were you aiming for?
‘Officially, the Pop-O-Pies played their first show on Sept 26, 1981 in Berkeley, CA, opening up for The Waitresses. I wanted to go for a few different kinds of sounds because I loved power pop and punk, like the Buzzcocks and Rezillos, but I also liked slower, dirgy, messy types of songs. And, as a kind of last minute after-thought, I also liked rap. I had the idea to do a rap version of ‘Truckin' about a month before we recorded ‘The White EP’. That was in 1982 so I may well have been one of the first White guys to do a rap song… and probably one of the first to put punk and rap on the same record.’
Your first single was a cover of the Grateful Deads’ song ‘Truckin’, released in 1981 on 415 Records. Why did you decide to cover that particular song and who were 415 Records?
‘Back in 1979, I was talking with some friends and wondered what it would sound like if Devo, Talking Heads, The Rezillos, and the Ramones had all got together and decided to write ‘Truckin', instead of the Grateful Dead… What would that have sounded like? Everybody laughed so hard that I knew I was on to something, so I went back to my lab and created a version of just that. 415 Records was a Bay Area label run by former KSAN disc jockey Howie Klein. He also signed other underground bands like Romeo Void, New Math, Translator and Red Rockers.’
415 also released your next record, ‘The White EP’, which included the two versions of ‘Truckin’ from the single, so I assume the 7” must have been reasonably popular?
‘Oh yeah, the 7" was played on jukeboxes all over the USA…’
The final track on the EP, ‘Fascists Eat Donuts’, seems to be an attempt to see how far a band can go with just one chord… was it a deliberate attempt to annoy people?
‘Kinda, but it was also trying to see how much you could do with the simplest combination of words and music. I was inspired by something Utah Phillips once said, "...any damn fool can be complicated but it takes REAL genius to make something great with simplicity". To this day, it's still the most covered of all the Pop-O-Pies songs.’
‘Back in 1979, I was talking with some friends and wondered what it would sound like if Devo, Talking Heads, The Rezillos, and the Ramones had all got together and decided to write ‘Truckin', instead of the Grateful Dead… What would that have sounded like? Everybody laughed so hard that I knew I was on to something, so I went back to my lab and created a version of just that. 415 Records was a Bay Area label run by former KSAN disc jockey Howie Klein. He also signed other underground bands like Romeo Void, New Math, Translator and Red Rockers.’
415 also released your next record, ‘The White EP’, which included the two versions of ‘Truckin’ from the single, so I assume the 7” must have been reasonably popular?
‘Oh yeah, the 7" was played on jukeboxes all over the USA…’
The final track on the EP, ‘Fascists Eat Donuts’, seems to be an attempt to see how far a band can go with just one chord… was it a deliberate attempt to annoy people?
‘Kinda, but it was also trying to see how much you could do with the simplest combination of words and music. I was inspired by something Utah Phillips once said, "...any damn fool can be complicated but it takes REAL genius to make something great with simplicity". To this day, it's still the most covered of all the Pop-O-Pies songs.’
‘Joe’s Second Record’ was released by Subterranean in 1984. Why did you go to a different label?
‘After ‘The White EP’ had run its course, I asked Howie Klein if he wanted to do another record and he declined. Not because ‘The White EP’ did badly - in fact it sold-out and was a big success, but by then he just wanted to take the label in a different direction. So in 1983 I ended-up in talks with a few labels who were interested in putting out ‘Joe's Second Record’. The reason I went with Subterranean is because I got a real good vibe from the president of the label, Steve Tupper. I felt he really understood where I wanted to go with my next record and was totally on board. Steve made it clear that he would give me complete artistic control over everything, not just the music but the record-cover artwork and everything else. Which must have been the right approach, because when the record came out did really well and actually went into multiple pressings.’
It starts with yet another version of ‘Truckin’ (this time ‘The Slow Version’) which sounds uncannily like a precursor to ‘Grunge’. Is it true that you would sometimes play a whole set just consisting of different versions of ‘Truckin’?
‘Yes and yes. In the 1990s, The San Francisco Chronicle called me one of the ‘Godfathers of Grunge’. You see, when I first started doing live shows, ‘Truckin' was the most popular of the two songs that I had given to the local College Radio Station (KUSF) to play, so it was like my hit tune. I was making a lot of statements by playing the one hit over and over again and one of them, which so many people missed, is that when bands save their most popular song to the end of the set, they are really humiliating themselves. What they are saying is, "we think the rest of our material is so weak that if we play the hit too early in the set, everyone will leave right afterwards." I wanted to see what would happen if a band did just the opposite.’
‘After ‘The White EP’ had run its course, I asked Howie Klein if he wanted to do another record and he declined. Not because ‘The White EP’ did badly - in fact it sold-out and was a big success, but by then he just wanted to take the label in a different direction. So in 1983 I ended-up in talks with a few labels who were interested in putting out ‘Joe's Second Record’. The reason I went with Subterranean is because I got a real good vibe from the president of the label, Steve Tupper. I felt he really understood where I wanted to go with my next record and was totally on board. Steve made it clear that he would give me complete artistic control over everything, not just the music but the record-cover artwork and everything else. Which must have been the right approach, because when the record came out did really well and actually went into multiple pressings.’
It starts with yet another version of ‘Truckin’ (this time ‘The Slow Version’) which sounds uncannily like a precursor to ‘Grunge’. Is it true that you would sometimes play a whole set just consisting of different versions of ‘Truckin’?
‘Yes and yes. In the 1990s, The San Francisco Chronicle called me one of the ‘Godfathers of Grunge’. You see, when I first started doing live shows, ‘Truckin' was the most popular of the two songs that I had given to the local College Radio Station (KUSF) to play, so it was like my hit tune. I was making a lot of statements by playing the one hit over and over again and one of them, which so many people missed, is that when bands save their most popular song to the end of the set, they are really humiliating themselves. What they are saying is, "we think the rest of our material is so weak that if we play the hit too early in the set, everyone will leave right afterwards." I wanted to see what would happen if a band did just the opposite.’
The band seem to be completely different this time and I believe three of the members were actually Bill, Mike and Roddy from Faith No More (under the alias names ‘Mr Bill’, ‘Imadundus Sluggo’ and ‘Roddy Cougar Mellencamp’!) How did you get to know those guys and is it true that you also sang for Faith No More on a few occasions?
‘The guys on the first record had been Mark Bowen on Guitar, Ben Cohen on Drums, and Jeff Ruzich on Bass, but yes, it was the Faith No More guys on my second record. I first met them right after the Pop-O-Pies opened for Flipper on Feb. 6, 1982. They came up to me afterwards and they were really stoked about our set (I had started something of a major riot at the venue and the owners eventually had to cut the power off on us.) We became fast friends and started to hang out and raise a lot of hell together in San Francisco. They would eventually become the Pop-O-Pies and we recorded ‘Joe's Second Record’ together in March, 1984, after which we toured the U.S. for the remainder of the year. And, yes, I was the very first singer of Faith No More. It was only meant to be temporary, until they could find somebody steady but it was like I was returning the favour. They were the instrumentalists in my band so I would fill in as the singer in their band. They tried a few singers before they settled on Chuck Mosley. In fact, Courtney Love, who was in our circle of friends at the time and became one of the Faith No More singers just before Chuck. Later on, after they fired Chuck, Bill asked if I would be their singer again if the next guy they were auditioning didn't pass muster, but that turned out to be Mike Patton! I think Mike was a real good choice and in fact, for what it's worth, I gave Mike my personal endorsement after Bill played me Mike's audition tape with them, in late 1988…’
Subterranean also released ‘Joe’s Third Record’ in 1985, which again featured completely different band members. Was it a deliberate intention to keep the line-up changing, or would you have preferred to have a steady line-up from record to record?
‘Well, I definitely wouldn't have minded working with the Faith No More guys again but Bill, Mike and Roddy were ready to start doing Faith No More full time at the beginning of 1985 so I had to find new members. Ultimately, I didn't mind if the Pop-O-Pies members changed or were a steady line up… I just left that up to fate and went with the flow.’
‘The guys on the first record had been Mark Bowen on Guitar, Ben Cohen on Drums, and Jeff Ruzich on Bass, but yes, it was the Faith No More guys on my second record. I first met them right after the Pop-O-Pies opened for Flipper on Feb. 6, 1982. They came up to me afterwards and they were really stoked about our set (I had started something of a major riot at the venue and the owners eventually had to cut the power off on us.) We became fast friends and started to hang out and raise a lot of hell together in San Francisco. They would eventually become the Pop-O-Pies and we recorded ‘Joe's Second Record’ together in March, 1984, after which we toured the U.S. for the remainder of the year. And, yes, I was the very first singer of Faith No More. It was only meant to be temporary, until they could find somebody steady but it was like I was returning the favour. They were the instrumentalists in my band so I would fill in as the singer in their band. They tried a few singers before they settled on Chuck Mosley. In fact, Courtney Love, who was in our circle of friends at the time and became one of the Faith No More singers just before Chuck. Later on, after they fired Chuck, Bill asked if I would be their singer again if the next guy they were auditioning didn't pass muster, but that turned out to be Mike Patton! I think Mike was a real good choice and in fact, for what it's worth, I gave Mike my personal endorsement after Bill played me Mike's audition tape with them, in late 1988…’
Subterranean also released ‘Joe’s Third Record’ in 1985, which again featured completely different band members. Was it a deliberate intention to keep the line-up changing, or would you have preferred to have a steady line-up from record to record?
‘Well, I definitely wouldn't have minded working with the Faith No More guys again but Bill, Mike and Roddy were ready to start doing Faith No More full time at the beginning of 1985 so I had to find new members. Ultimately, I didn't mind if the Pop-O-Pies members changed or were a steady line up… I just left that up to fate and went with the flow.’
Regardless, I think ‘Joe’s Third Record’ is the most solid album you made and sounds a lot more focused... What do you think of it in retrospect?
‘Yeah, the song-writing and the musicianship is great but the recording / engineering on it is pretty bad. But despite that, the content on it is so strong that even a bad engineer couldn't ruin it.’
Did you play live or tour much around this time?
‘Yes, we did, all across North America including Canada… ‘
No version of ‘Truckin’ this time, but there is a version of another Grateful Dead song, ‘Sugar Magnolia’, albeit played backwards. Why were you so interested in the Grateful Dead?
‘It just started as a lark, actually. When I wrote my arrangement of our first version of Truckin', I never realized that it would become the most popular track from my first batch of songs. So again, I just kind of went with the flow when it happened…’
You also include a version of the Beatles song ‘I Am the Walrus’, recorded live in one take and including your amendments to the lyrics. I think it’s one of, if not the, best Beatles covers ever recorded. But why did you pick that particular song?
‘Well, Kirk Heydt, the guitarist on ‘Joe's Third Record’, had been doing a version of it with his previous band, who were called ‘Hello Kitty On Ice’ (which, by the way, featured Gregg Turkington on vocals, who went on to be the comedian Neil Hamburger.) So when that line-up were putting together our first live shows we included it in the setlist. I put my own spin on it as we always did, and I thought it sounded so good that I included it on the album. A bit of trivia here… Kurt Cobain liked the Pop-O-Pies cover of "I Am The Walrus" so much that he mentioned it in his posthumously released Journals. When I met Krist Novoselic in 2008 he confirmed to me that yes, indeed, he and Kurt were both big fans of the Pop-O-Pies music…’
‘Yeah, the song-writing and the musicianship is great but the recording / engineering on it is pretty bad. But despite that, the content on it is so strong that even a bad engineer couldn't ruin it.’
Did you play live or tour much around this time?
‘Yes, we did, all across North America including Canada… ‘
No version of ‘Truckin’ this time, but there is a version of another Grateful Dead song, ‘Sugar Magnolia’, albeit played backwards. Why were you so interested in the Grateful Dead?
‘It just started as a lark, actually. When I wrote my arrangement of our first version of Truckin', I never realized that it would become the most popular track from my first batch of songs. So again, I just kind of went with the flow when it happened…’
You also include a version of the Beatles song ‘I Am the Walrus’, recorded live in one take and including your amendments to the lyrics. I think it’s one of, if not the, best Beatles covers ever recorded. But why did you pick that particular song?
‘Well, Kirk Heydt, the guitarist on ‘Joe's Third Record’, had been doing a version of it with his previous band, who were called ‘Hello Kitty On Ice’ (which, by the way, featured Gregg Turkington on vocals, who went on to be the comedian Neil Hamburger.) So when that line-up were putting together our first live shows we included it in the setlist. I put my own spin on it as we always did, and I thought it sounded so good that I included it on the album. A bit of trivia here… Kurt Cobain liked the Pop-O-Pies cover of "I Am The Walrus" so much that he mentioned it in his posthumously released Journals. When I met Krist Novoselic in 2008 he confirmed to me that yes, indeed, he and Kurt were both big fans of the Pop-O-Pies music…’
Your final single (to date) is the 7” ‘In Frisco’ / ‘Squarehead’, released by Amarillo Records in 1993. Although recorded at that time, I think the songs were actually a lot older?
‘Yes, the Pop-O-Pies had been playing ‘In Frisco’ for about ten years before it was recorded in 1993, and ‘Squarehead’ was originally recorded on a Pop-O-Pies demo tape in 1988. In fact, it was Bill Gould who recorded and engineered the original version for us on his Revox reel-to-reel!’
The band member details on that single were exceptionally vague… who were the collaborators for that single?
‘Trey and Danny of Mr. Bungle and Atom Ellis (who's played with tons of well known bands including the Cars and the Tubes.)’
The sleeve notes stated that there was going to be a ‘well-spring of new Pop-O-Pies material’ in the coming years. How come that didn’t happen?
‘Well, it actually did, but it didn't come out until 2003 on the Pop-O-Anthology CD (ten years later). The remaining songs from that 1993 session with Trey, Danny and Atom Ellis, which was what that sleeve-note was referring to, ended up as the two bonus tracks on the Pop-O-Pies Anthology CD in 2003.’
‘Yes, the Pop-O-Pies had been playing ‘In Frisco’ for about ten years before it was recorded in 1993, and ‘Squarehead’ was originally recorded on a Pop-O-Pies demo tape in 1988. In fact, it was Bill Gould who recorded and engineered the original version for us on his Revox reel-to-reel!’
The band member details on that single were exceptionally vague… who were the collaborators for that single?
‘Trey and Danny of Mr. Bungle and Atom Ellis (who's played with tons of well known bands including the Cars and the Tubes.)’
The sleeve notes stated that there was going to be a ‘well-spring of new Pop-O-Pies material’ in the coming years. How come that didn’t happen?
‘Well, it actually did, but it didn't come out until 2003 on the Pop-O-Anthology CD (ten years later). The remaining songs from that 1993 session with Trey, Danny and Atom Ellis, which was what that sleeve-note was referring to, ended up as the two bonus tracks on the Pop-O-Pies Anthology CD in 2003.’
Liberation Hall released ‘The White EP’ on CD (with seven extra tracks) in 2020 – where did the extra tracks come from?
‘Three from ‘Joe's Second Record’, one from ‘Joe's Third Record’ and the others are from the 1993 Recording Session referenced above, a recording session that I did with Klaus Fluoride of the Dead Kennedys in Oakland, CA, back in 2005 and finally another recording session that I did at Beta Sound Studios in 2011 in Reno, Nevada.’
Do you still record or play live these days? (Are you still in San Francisco?)
‘I haven't done any recording or live shows in about 12 years. I live in Reno, Nevada now and have been here since 2010.’
What are your plans, if any, for Pop-O-Pies in the future? Any further appearances or releases?
‘Well, anything's possible! I'm still in good health and can still perform so we'll see what opportunities arise...’
‘Three from ‘Joe's Second Record’, one from ‘Joe's Third Record’ and the others are from the 1993 Recording Session referenced above, a recording session that I did with Klaus Fluoride of the Dead Kennedys in Oakland, CA, back in 2005 and finally another recording session that I did at Beta Sound Studios in 2011 in Reno, Nevada.’
Do you still record or play live these days? (Are you still in San Francisco?)
‘I haven't done any recording or live shows in about 12 years. I live in Reno, Nevada now and have been here since 2010.’
What are your plans, if any, for Pop-O-Pies in the future? Any further appearances or releases?
‘Well, anything's possible! I'm still in good health and can still perform so we'll see what opportunities arise...’
If you’d like to check-out ongoing developments or even contact Joe and the Band for yourself, there’s an official website which you can find here;